Alsace and Lorraine

[Len Trim]

We read a lot about France's desire to win back the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine taken from France when it lost the war against Prussia/Germany in the 1870s. My question is did the Alsace/ Lorrainers want to rejoin France after WW1? After all at least two generations had passed in which they were presumably German citizens.

Len

[burlington]

Correct me please if I am wrong but my understanding is the Alsace, even today,was & is essentially a Germanic area whereas Lorraine is essentially French though control of the Regions has changed hands many times.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine_%28region%29#Language_and_culturefor Lorraine and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace for Alsace.

Also, in modern times and based on my visits there, German & French are the predominant languages for the region with German seeming to have the edge close to the border.

Please, someone correct me! I am no expert.

Martin

ps A true story. In an Alsatian restaurant where the menu was in German & French, an English couple came in with a couple of children and complained bitterly and quite loudly to the waitress, in English, that there was no menu in that language. My wife & I who seemed to be the only English couple in the place buried out heads in our food! And, yes, we did make sense of the menu and had a lovely meal. The other couple walked out!

[egbert]

German was the official language in Alsace since Charlemagne from 814 on. French was/is only the official language for about a total of some 240 years. The rest of the 1200 year Alsatian history saw German as official language.

And why is that?

When looking into European history, even way before Charlemagne, you will notice that every 100 years the borders changed dramatically since back to the times of the Holy Roman Empire until 1945. Borders were newly drawn by treaties, marriages or by wars, even gave birth to countries and states/provinces, others perished.

Are the European borders before 1845 or1871/1918/1945 the correct ones? Have they been claimed by victors (like Spain, Holy Roman Empire; Carolingian, or more recent Germany 1871 or France 1918, or US/UK/SU 1945)? Yes!
Some claim Alsace-Lorraine was occupied by Germany from 1871 until 1918 (and again from 1940-45). You have to look into history and you might say that France took possession of Alsace-Lorraine from previous Germanic governments before that. It starts all with the time of the Saxon and Franconian Emperors in 15th century, when Alsace-Lorraine belonged to the forefathers of today's Germany. From that time on Alsace-Lorraine changed possession several times.

Who claims to be the rightful possessor?

Usually the last victor. In this case 1871 Germany and 1918 and 1945 France.

So when somebody claims in the context of this Great War Forum that Germany occupied Alsace-Lorraine you address a than legal German province. Imperial Germany did not occupy the province, but think the unthinkable: were the rightful owners of it and tried to withdrew the French "invaders" in Oct/Nov/Dec 1914. It is always a matter from where your point of view come in European history and where you start European history in time.

The Alsatian population at all times had to cope with the resentments that when belonging to Germany they were treated with mistrust by the Germans and when belonging to France were treated by the French with mistrust. A European tragedy that finally ended after 1945 when the French government pumped masses of population from other parts of France into Alsace-Lorraine in order to "secure" the province, also called Francisation

[IanA]

My understanding is that, although there were some pro-German elements, the population of Alsace was largely inclined to France. When Germany took the region, they went about installing German school teachers, gendarmes and officials and making themselves generally unpopular. The attitude was captured by the cartoonist Hansi (although the attached images were drawn during the war, Hansi had been jailed by the German authorities for his gentle mocking of the military, professors and German tourists). Soldiers recruited into the German army from Alsace were prone to deserting and I seem to recall that units containing mostly men from the region were usually kept away from the Western Front wherever possible.

[egbert]

Here is a tab that shows the German influence in Alsace-Lorraine over time in Yellow and the French influence in Green color

Alsace-Lorraine German-French influence.docx

[egbert]

Propaganda posters do not generate the historical facts. There were hundreds of such trivial propaganda posters out there. This one i.e. against the French

[CROONAERT]

... I seem to recall that units containing mostly men from the region were usually kept away from the Western Front wherever possible.

Yet the half-Alsacien 29th Infantry Division was specifically moved from the Vosges to the Artois to defend the area of Notre-Dame de Lorette due to their renowned tenacity. The 58th Brigade in particular - which contained a larger than usual number of Alsace-Lorrainers - fought well and lost extremely heavily during 1914-15 in this sector. They remained on the Western Front throughout the war and took part in many major actions (Champagne (X2), Somme, Lys), though, by the end of 1917, it was mostly recruiting from Baden born men (most of the Alsacien element having become casualties by this point).

[CROONAERT]

An interesting point is to look at recruitment in the French Army of (German) Alsace-Lorrainers prior to WW1...

Some 45% of the members of the Legion etrangere hailed from these provinces in 1885. In 1889, men from these provinces were allowed to exchange nationality prior to enlistment and enlist in metropolitan French units (though the majority still opted for the L.E.).. The problem (to the Germans) of this exodus of men of military age became so great that government pressure had forced Alsacien recruitment in the Legion etrangere to drop to about 6% by 1903. I suppose that an element of 'Germanisation' of the population in the 32 years since becoming a part of Germany could also have had an influence by now though with recruits now opting to complete their compulsory military service in the German army rather than the French?

Dave.

[Dragon]

A recent exhibition, Le Baiser de France, at Mémorial de l'Alsace Moselle in Schirmeck examined this question (but you've missed it). The Treaty of Versailles officially reinstated Alsace and Moselle to France, but France had been in charge of the region since the end of the war. There were some areas which it had been managing since well before that (the Doller and Thur valleys). Joffre had fulfilled his promise to bring to the region the Kiss of France.

 

A vast amount of propaganda existed to create in the minds of the French the image of the distraught Alsacienne woman waiting to return to France. She is allegorical, recognisable by her coiffe (the big black bow) and Lorraine is depicted with a cotton cap, similarly awaiting liberation. Both women are serene, patient, nostalgic and patriotic. The women often hold tricolores or posies with red, blue and white flowers. They are excellent francophiles. The recurrent theme of the propaganda is return and revenge.

 

In the popular imagination, Alsace had remained exactly as it was in 1871. Plenty of propaganda perpetuated this myth. There was a naïve expectation that the culture and spirit of the place would be unchanged, because, as I’ve said elsewhere in my Blue Line Frontier blog, a romanticism grew, eagerly fostered by the tourism industry. The Vosges offered beautiful landscapes, snow, space, pure air, a healthy environment and a range of accommodation. The myth of a rural idyll was enthusiastically fostered by travel organisations and tourist literature. Numerous intrepid travellers published works describing the unspoiled romantic beauty of the Vosges, an area apparently populated by simple honest folk who sang as they went about their daily lives and mingled with innocent animals straight out of fairy tales. The shallow, charming portraits almost entirely ignored the fact that the Vosges is a working area. The idea was heavily circulated that France would regain a region which was in what we would call a time warp, and the people would be thrilled to return.

 

In reality, the Alsace of 1914 was very different indeed from the Alsace of 1871. It had been managed by a stable and prosperous administration. Anyone under the age of 43 had grown up as a German. Most people spoke German as their first language. Despite the propaganda, their wish to be French again was far from assured. When French troops arrived in Alsace, they were given an enthusiastic reception and numerous photos record soldiers being greeted with intense pleasure by women in Alsacien costume. In fact orders had gone out to encourage as many women as possible to make their way to celebrations and parades wearing their national dress. The images of hundreds of beaming women in coiffes are not what they seem.

 

It was recognised that the first difficulty of assimilation was language. Many Alsaciens did not speak or read French, or not easily. The more educated were more fluent and were bilingual. There were regional dialects to complicate matters. To become properly French, adults and children had to read French, write French, speak French and, the most problematic of all, think in French. The primary means of delivering the francisation of Alsace were to be education and religion. (Postcards showing a poilu in uniform teaching young children French patriotic phrases are typical.) In addition to this, there were cinema films, courses, plays and programmes of lectures. Alsace was to be saturated by French. Language was the absolute key to the region thinking of itself as French.

 

The enthusiastic reception the people gave to their liberators, and the elections in 1919, were taken as a plebiscite in favour of France. Germans were forced to leave with 30 kg of baggage and 2000 marks. The rest of their property was sequestered.

 

Embitteredness, unhappiness and confusion soon followed the initial enthusiasm. Some of the French government’s action caused anger. Alsace faced crisis. In the confused climate, a separatist movement began. Adding to the complexity, there were regional differences in attitude: people in Mulhouse (south) thought radically differently from Strasbourgeois/es, people in villages thought differently from those in small towns, those in the mountains thought differently again. Those with university educations or contacts veered towards being French. The more affluent, upper class Alsaciens tended to prefer to be French, while the petit bourgeoisie tended to adhere to orderly, well managed German ways, which is one reason why it was possible for the Nazis to find some sympathisers in Alsace later on.

 

I have dozens of patriotic or propaganda postcards relating to Alsace if there is any interest in seeing some.

 

If interested in the complexity of Alsacien identity, Psychanalyse de l’Alsace by Frédéric Hoffet is, I believe, a classic. (I've stayed in his son's gîte.)

 

I hope this helps.

 

Gwyn

(Les Vedettes. Alsace left, Lorraine right, striped frontier border post one of the types which was erected along the 1871 border, gallant France riding to the rescue. My card.)

Edited 28 January , 2017 by Dragon
Edited to reinstate paragraphs lost in forum upgrade

[EastSurrey]

Much of Alsace is very beautiful as well as historically interesting, e.g. the 1870 battlefield of Woerth/Froschwiller remained quite unspoilt when I last visited. Alsace is a grand place for a holiday. The ability of the locals to switch from one language to another is also impressive-in a supermarket it was Alsatian to the locals, German to the tourists from over the Rhine and French to us! In the local bakers, however, the staff were amused to find we, with our halting French, were English- they normally only saw Germans, it seems.

Michael

[Dragon]

I've been going to Alsace and the Vosges two or three times a year since the late 1980s. I love it. Because we speak French, but are obviously not French, and my spouse speaks German, the common assumption is that we're Dutch.

I've put together my own illustrated document (in English) on visiting Alsace and the Vosges with an interest in war vestiges. I can email it to anyone who is interested.

Gwyn

[egbert]

...... Because we speak French, but are obviously not French, and my spouse speaks German, the common assumption is that we're Dutch.......

Gwyn

My assumption would be you both are Alsatian

[Dragon]

La première leçon de Français en Alsace reconquise.

[egbert]

This card depicts the first lessons in a typical re-education camp.

[Dragon]

What about this, then? Nice French soldier breaking off from warmongering to teach children on a farm in the Vosges. Presumably reading French to them.

My card.

[egbert]

mobile re-education platoon

[Len Trim]

Thanks for the very interesting and detailed replies to my question. It's an area I have always wanted to explore and holiday in. Sadly I have only passed through Strasbourg a couple of times with my family while heading elsewhere on holiday. I have never managed to persuade fellow battlefield enthusiasts to head that way. This year it's the Western Front again although emphasis is on Mons to the Aisne rather than the usual Somme and Ypres. Maybe one year.

Len

[seaforths]

Thanks for the very interesting and detailed replies to my question. It's an area I have always wanted to explore and holiday in. Sadly I have only passed through Strasbourg a couple of times with my family while heading elsewhere on holiday. I have never managed to persuade fellow battlefield enthusiasts to head that way. This year it's the Western Front again although emphasis is on Mons to the Aisne rather than the usual Somme and Ypres. Maybe one year.

Len

I think the Michelin Guides published just after the war might be available on-line for free and think there were two of them for this particular area. There was a thread on those books somewhere... you could always have a vicarious trip until you get the real deal.

I believe Germany put in place an electric fence in the Alsace area, to stop the inhabitants of 13 villages getting into French territory. I have never quite been able to establish where this was exactly. Possibly some of it down in the area of Basle although I'm not sure if they would have electrified any Swiss parts of the border. I guess each side would know by the reception they received, where the loyalties of the inhabitants lay. That said, there could have been divided loyalties within the same locality.

[Fattyowls]

Thanks to Len for asking an interesting question and to all the respondents for the illuminating responses. It has been fascinating.

Pete.

[Dragon]

The Michelin Guides published in 1920 are also frequently available second hand: L'Alsace et les Combats des Vosges Volumes I and II. There were also guides to Strasbourg and to Colmar, Mulhouse and Schlestadt (Sélestat). I have the whole set. They have been updated and rewritten under the new Michelin series Les champs de bataille as one book Alsace Moselle les Combats des Vosges (2013). These are all in French.

 

I would be really interested to know about an electric fence because I haven't come across this in my reading. The frontier was marked by bornes frontières (boundary stones) which you can still see crossing the landscape and forests for miles: I've walked a reasonable amount of the boundary along the bornes. Crossings were marked with poteaux frontières. My blog is about the frontier separating Alsace from France before the Great War (though I've included some centenary events because, well, it's the Centenary). More about the boundary here and here and here . It's called the Blue Line Frontier partly because the Vosges do form a blue line as you see them in the distance and partly because the phrase (ligne bleu) was used in a nostalgic way by those who wanted the region to return to France.

 

If you felt like dipping into my blog there are lots of contemporary postcards and my own photos. It's an ongoing project: I've been collecting postcards of Alsace and the Vosges in the 1871 - 1914 era for a long time, have hundreds and decided to share them.

 

(One of a series of Distress / Hope cards. Alsace in her black coiffe, Lorraine in cotton cap. My card)

Gwyn

Edited 28 January , 2017 by Dragon
Reinstating paragraphs

[seaforths]

I am enjoying the images from cards and posters being shown here. I have done quite a bit of research on POWs being in the area and I'm still doing that. There are some interesting letters in the Foreign Office files from civilians that have written to alert the British authorities about prisoners. Sarralbe and Mullheim are two of these locations. In the case of the latter, it would seem that the woman was allowed to travel freely from Switzerland to visit relatives just outside of Mullheim. Perhaps she did not have German loyalties. Or perhaps she did but on humanitarian grounds, felt the need to inform the British on her return to Basle. There is some information about the electric fence in a book called 'The Art of Staying Neutral' about the Netherlands during WW1 by Maartje M. Abbenhuis. It was available to download freely. An extract from that book:

'As a result, in April 1915, the German leader- ship decided to erect a 300-kilometre fence along the frontier, charged with a lethal current, in an attempt to isolate Belgium from the Netherlands. Unfortunately, extant German sources on the fence are difficult to find. Nevertheless, the tremendous effort and huge cost involved in building this structure indicates how harmful Ger- many believed unauthorised use of the frontier was for its war effort. The existence of the fence also explains a great deal about the value Germany placed on Dutch neutrality, while preventing its enemies from enjoying the advantages of that neu- trality.

The Belgian electric fence had a predecessor. Early in 1915, Germany construct- ed a barrier between thirteen villages in the province of Alsace and the border with Switzerland. This structure consisted of metal wires charged with an electric current

rent strong enough to kill any person or animal that touched it. A German officer, D. Schütte, assistant to an intelligence agent in Belgium, believed that it was possi- ble to build a similar but much longer structure along the Belgian-Dutch frontier. The Governor-General of Belgium agreed, and in April 1915, German Landsturm troops, aided by paid local workers and forced labour from Russian POW camps, worked on the fence at several locations. By August, it stretched from where Dutch Limburg met German and Belgian territory (near Vaals) to where the Schelde river cut the Dutch-Belgian border in Zeeland.'

Sources of information regarding the Alsace fence are even more difficult to find. I did manage to find a little bit from a website but it seemed to be regarding an electric fence surrounding a large gun emplacement. Also, as you can see from the extract, it would seem that it was between Alsace and Switzerland that the border was electrified.

Edit: typos

[Dragon]

I took photos for LST_164 in Saaralbe Military Cemetery and have some overall views, if they are of interest at any time.

Gwyn

[seaforths]

I took photos for LST_164 in Saaralbe Military Cemetery and have some overall views, if they are of interest at any time.

Gwyn

Gwyn, thank you very much for your kind offer. I might take you up on it at some point. I was looking at Sarralbe with regard to the letter. I came across the letter written in French and it picqued my curiosity. I saw from CWGC site that there were some original burials there and that must have been related to the letter. Coincidentally at around the same time, I was also looking at exhumations from Schneidmuhl and came across a British soldier who was not concentrated into one of the four German cemeteries but taken all the way to Sarralbe. It transpired that the French must have got there first to exhume and remove their men from Schneidemuhl. It seems that along their journey, as they were moving the bodies back to France, they noticed that they had also mistakenly exhumed a British servicemen. He was offloaded at Sarralbe and buried there.

I have been looking at air raids on Douai this past couple of weeks in newspaper reports. What I noticed in reading the articles was that targets were also being bombed in Alsace and Lorraine. I can see why those in the south near the Swiss border would want to get away into neutral territory. They may have been German and pro-German but the hardships would have made Switzerland attractive. However, I do think the use of an electric fence was quite harsh. Particularly as the river itself would have posed a considerable barrier to the many that did not have access to a boat. I believe it claimed the lives of a few WW2 escapers and possibly a few from WW1 too. Although I've only seen information on WW2 at the moment I certainly wouldn't rule out WW1.

Edit; typo corrected

[major disaster 74]

I know months have passed since this thread was last replied to, i found this fascinating my mothers family are from a town on the modern day border between Lorraine and Germany a place called Forbach, the information mentioned will keep me researching for weeks

[Dragon]

Forbach south west of Saarbrucken?

 

If you go to explore that area, Völklinger Hütte (historic ironworks) is amazing. I've been three times. (On topic, almost all of the raw steel for the 1916 issue German helmet was made here, as were shells. It was operated by women and prisoners-of-war.)

 

Gwyn

Edited 28 January , 2017 by Dragon