Gloucestershire Constabulary Memorial - Problem Names

[Willywombat]

All,

I am presently researching the war memorial for Gloucestershire Constabulary. Luckily, it's a very informative one that not only gives the names of the fallen, but also (as separate categories) those who were wounded and did not return to force, wounded and did return to Force, plus those who served. The memorial itself gives initials and name, rank and unit ('Glos Regt', 'RFA', RAMC' etc.) but without specifics such as battalion or battery.

Sources I have used so far are:

Ancestry - MICs, service records, pension records, census.

Naval & Military Archive - Medal Rolls, Silver War Badge Rolls.

Police Committee minutes

Newspaper reports (not a complete search exhausting all possibilities)

As a result , I've found MICs or other evidence for almost all of the 140-odd on the memorial, leaving just a few 'problem children'.

At risk of being accused of spamming (!) please bear with me if I list the 'problem' ones below, in the hope that they may come up in forum searches. It may be, of course, that in the future I'll have info on them someone else needs, so it's not just a one-way street! I'm after any info, but particularly the specific battalion/battery etc. and the service number(s):

1. Attwood, John, Private Coldstream Guards. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Battalion not known. Now identified as Gdsm 6452 and service record retrieved.

2. Akers, Bertie Henry. Gunner RGA. Date of enlistment not known. You'd have thought a distinctive surname like that should be easy to find! Most Gloucestershire police officers went to 129 Heavy Battery (The Bristol Heavy Battery - or 'Police Heavy battery').

3. Barnfield, Albert. Private Coldstream Guards. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Battalion not known. Newspaper of November 1919 lists him as demobbing from the 'Machine Gun Guards'. Now identified as Gdsm 6451 and service record retrieved.

4. Garner, Arthur Edwin. Sergeant, Royal Engineers. Enlisted may 1915. Newspaper of November 1919 lists him as demobbing from the RE and was wounded whilst in service, so he should appear somewhere! Listed as wounded and returned to Force. Now identified as Sgt 498059 thanks to some input from Tim (BlackBlue), Down Under!

5. Holland, Thomas F. Private ASC (MT). Unable to discern from the MICs which 'Holland' in the ASC he is.

6. Jefferies, James William. Sergeant, Royal Gloucestershire Hussars. Enlisted May 1915. Unable to find any military record for him. Listed as wounded and returned to Force.

7. Marshall, John H. Sergeant, Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Recalled to the colours 05/08/14. Unable to find any military record for him. Listed as wounded and returned to Force.

8. Miles, Wilfred J. Private, Coldstream Guards. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Battalion not known. Now identified as Gdsm 6483 and service record retrieved.

9. Mince, Oliver. Private, Coldstream Guards. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Battalion not known. Now identified as Gdsm 6479 and service record retrieved.

10. Moss, William H. Royal Navy. Recalled to colours 05/08/14. Now identified by Simon Fielding as AB SS1979 and service record retrieved.

11. Mustoe, Frederick W. Private, Coldstream Guards. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Battalion not known. Now identified as Gdsm 26125 and service record retrieved.

12. Oakley, Albert A. Private, Coldstream Guards. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Battalion not known. Now identified as Gdsm 6478 and service record retrieved.

13. Perry, Alfred W. Private, Coldstream Guards. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Battalion not known. Now identified as Gdsm 26132 and service record retrieved.

14. Reeves, William C. Private, Coldstream Guards. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Battalion not known. Now identified as Gdsm 25861 and service record retrieved.

15. Rowles, Joseph S. Private, Guards MGC. Date of enlistment not known. Almost certainly identified as Gdsm 8400 by Simon Fielding (see post No 7) - thanks, Simon! Service record retrieved

16. Smith, Frederick. Private, Guards MGC. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Now identified as Gdsm 6489 and service record retrieved.

17. Teal, Percy W. Sergeant, RGA. Enlisted May 1915.

18. Wickham, George H. Private, Guards MGC. Enlisted 20/04/18 (therefore possibly didn't go abroad). Now identified as Gdsm 6491 and service record retrieved.

19. Wilcox, Henry J. Sergeant, Gloucestershire Regiment. Enlisted May 1915. Now identified as Sgt 202909 Harry John Wilcox, 2nd Bn Gloucestershire Regiment.

20. Williams, Frederick J. Sergeant, RFA. Recalled to the colours 05/08/14. Local Newspaper records him as being RGA as opposed to RFA, but may be a misprint.

21. Williams, George. Gunner, RGA. Enlisted May 1915. Now identified by Simon Fielding as Gnr 291685 (RGA) (See post No 30)

As I say, I'm putting the list up in the hope that info may come my way sometime in the future - not expecting forum members to waste their time searching hard on my behalf!

Many thanks,

Bob.

[IPT]

Can you identify the men who are casualties, and those who were wounded?

[Willywombat]

Yes, by all means - I have amended the original post to show Listed as wounded and returned to Force.

All the others are on the memorial as 'served', so no other casualties of any type amongst them.

[IPT]

It's odd that there seems to be a J.W. Jefferies on the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars Yeomanry memorial at College Green.

[Simon_Fielding]

Gloucester Journal 24 October 14 confirms call up in Warwickshire Regiment

[Willywombat]

IPT - Interesting!

The Gloucester Journal of 08/05/15 shows him enlisting from the Forest of Dean division.

The 1911 census shows a James William Jefferies (born at Pilning) as a PC stationed at Blakeney (which is in the Forest), aged 23, so that will be him. I don't know if the one on the RGH memorial is the same one, though?

Simon - Yes, I found John Marshall in the Gloucester Journal of that date. He was recalled to the colours from Sharpness, where he was stationed.

I can't find him in the 1911 census as a police officer, but he may have still been serving as a regular then.

[Simon_Fielding]

Possibly no. 15? record gives occupation as police constable. From FMP so let me know if you would like me to 'help'!

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Transcription

Print transcription View image Attach to tree

First name(s) Samuel Joseph Warren

Last name Rowles

Service number 8400

Regiment Guards Machine Gun Regiment

Unit / Battalion 5th (Reserve) Battalion

Event year 1918

Age 30

Birth year 1888

Birth town Saul

Birth county Gloucestershire

Birth country England

Residence town -

Residence county Gloucestershire

Series WO 363

Record set British Army Service Records 1914-1920

Category Military, armed forces & conflict

Record collection First World War

Collections from Great Britain

[Willywombat]

Simon - you star!

I thought I'd exhausted the service records but must have missed him!

I've just looked again on Ancestry and he doesn't come up under any combination of the names nor service numbers.

Shows I'll have to look harder... but I don't have a FMP account.

Let me pm you...

Thanks,

Bob.

Edited to add - Simon, your mailbox is full, I think. I tried to send you a complete copy of my findings so far in pdf.

[Coldstreamer]

check the MIC - if there isn't a card it MAY indicate the man didn't serve in theatre

[Simon_Fielding]

Glad to help Bob! I have had a clear out so your PM should be fine.

I think you once helped me out early in my WW1 research career with some SDGW printouts, so I'm delighted to help out!

[HeatherC]

Bob - just out of curiosity, you seem to have an awful lot listed as enlisting on the same date? Any thought on why this was?

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Not wanting to tread on Bob's toes but to answer your question this is the relevant thread from earlier in the week.

Regards

Steve Y

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219765&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

[Willywombat]

Thanks to all of you for your interest in this!

Right - just to catch you all up:

Thanks to some inspired searching by Simon Fielding, we have now found all the Guardsmen. I have amended the first post in red to reflect the ones we've cracked (that's over half of them!)

Heather - yes, as Steve has indicated to my previous thread - they're all police officers who were released from Force at intervals, depending on when the Home Office and the War Office could come to an arrangement and not affect police manpower. The Guardsmen's service records show almost all of them attesting in 1915 and then being put on hold until the Force could release them under this arrangement. Many of the future-Guardsmen waited until 1918 and thus never got the chance to serve overseas.

I've been doing a bit of background work from another angle:

Bertie Akers (who should be easy to find with a name like that!), I reckon he enlisted in 1915 and was allocated a service number in a sequence of Gloucestershire police officers who joined the RGA together (at least 53 of them did that, all at the same time). I reckon he then got weeded out for some medical reason, probably, hence there is no MIC for him. To back this up, I have searched the newspapers and he's in court giving evidence regularly right up until the end of 1914. There is then a gap until he appears giving evidence again in December 1916. There's no SWB for him and he doesn't appear on the memorial as 'wounded and returned to Force'.

I have also found out that the Gloucestershire Constabulary service records for these chaps exist in Gloucestershire Archives. They are closed for 100 years since the date of the last entry (which, as many retired in the 1930s/40s is a pain!). However, being ex-job myself, I'm sure I can persuade the Chief Constable to give me an authorisation to look at them on her behalf. The DCC is ex-forces and he'd be interested to know what the history is. I'll go along to the Force Remembrance wreath-laying on the 11th, wearing my gongs and all spruced up, and see if I can collar one of them...

Stand by!

Bob.

[Simon_Fielding]

This looks like no.10 as it mentions '35 Police' in the occupation....

First name(s) William Henry Last name Moss Service number SS1979 Birth year 1888 Birth date 21 Oct 1888 Birth place Hereford Birth county Herefordshire Birth country England Archive reference ADM 188/1095/1979 Record set Royal Navy Seamen 1899-1919 Category Military, armed forces & conflict Record collection Service Records Collections from Great Britain

I'll add it to the pile!

[Blackblue]

Don't know if these are much help. From the Medal Rolls. I can't ID any of the Coldstream lads with medals.

Garner, Arthur Edwin - Possibly 2825 (TF) and 498059. Only Arthur Garner SGT RE.

Jefferies, James William - Possibly PTE 621534 Labour Corps. Formerly 235576 Glosters. Only Cavalry James Jeffries is 18^th Hussars.

Marshall, John H - Only John H Marshall recorded as RWarks is PTE 17740 12^th RWarks.

Rgds

Tim D

[stuart rowles]

SAMUEL JOSEPH WARREN ROWLES

Samuel Joseph Warren Rowles was born in 1885 at No. 4, Canal Bank, Saul, Wheatenhurst the son of Elijah and Eliza Amanda Rowles (née Warren), a ‘Master Mariner’ of Dursley. See Tree.

He married Edith Mary Teed on 16th November 1908 at All Saints Church, Gloucester.

They had 1 son.

Edith Mary died in 1987 at Hastings & Rother, age 85.

In the 1911 census he is age 26 and married to Edith Mary and has 1 child. He gave his occupation as ‘Police Constable’. They are living at West End, Northleach, Gloucestershire.

He attested on 10th December 1915 and was put on Army Reserve until 1st July 1918.

He enlisted in the Guards Machine Gun Regiment on 1st July 1918 at Gloucester.

He gave his occupation as ‘Police Constable’, and his address as 60 Millbrook Street, Gloucester.

He was described as being 5 feet 10¾ inches tall, black hair and blue eyes.

The Guards Machine Gun Regiment was newly formed on 10th May 1918 from four Machine Gun Battalions. The 5th (Reserve) Battalion was a Machine Gun Training centre.

He was discharged on 18th January 1919.

In 1939 he is listed as the landlord of ‘The Crown Inn’ at Bevington, near Berkeley, Gloucestershire.

He died on 27th July 1943 at 49 Leigh Gardens, Kensal Rise, London, age 58.

See Administration Bond.

[stuart rowles]

Does anyone have a photograph of the panels.

I would be particularly interest in the panel with the name ROWLES on it.

Is there a good picture of the memorial before it was smashed or has it been restored yet.

[Willywombat]

Does anyone have a photograph of the panels.

I would be particularly interest in the panel with the name ROWLES on it.

Is there a good picture of the memorial before it was smashed or has it been restored yet.

Thanks for all the info on Rowles! That's much appreciated, and gives some useful background to his life pre and post war. Thanks for adding it to the thread!

I don't know what you mean, though, by 'smashed'? Neither I nor anyone on this or any other threads connected with the memorial have ever mentioned anything along those lines?? Have we???

The memorial resides quite comfortably on the wall at the Gloucestershire Constabulary HQ building at Gloucester. It did languish in the cellar for a few years when the HQ building moved from Cheltenham, but it is now back in its rightful place.

Photographs are rather difficult. The memorial is a large, light wood panel with the letters on it in gold. It has bright lights shining on it and a combination of the lightness of the wood, reflectivity of the gold and the lights make photographing it very difficult. Please find attached a very poor shot, just to give you an idea...

I have also attached a close up of the Rowles name.

[Willywombat]

Tim (BlackBlue),

Well done - Garner is, indeed, one of those two. I put the name and service numbers into the newspaper archive and had a bit of a play around, and look what popped up!

The 1911 census shows him as a police officer at Tetbury Police Station, so that's our man!

In my best Australian accent.... Gee, thanks, cobber!!

[Willywombat]

This looks like no.10 as it mentions '35 Police' in the occupation....

First name(s) William Henry Last name Moss Service number SS1979 Birth year 1888 Birth date 21 Oct 1888 Birth place Hereford Birth county Herefordshire Birth country England Archive reference ADM 188/1095/1979 Record set Royal Navy Seamen 1899-1919 Category Military, armed forces & conflict Record collection Service Records Collections from Great Britain

I'll add it to the pile!

That's the badger!

Thanks again, Simon!

[Simon_Fielding]

Just checking you have this Bob-

CHELTENHAM POLICE SERGEANT RETIRES Police-Sergeant Arthur Edwin Garner of the Cheltenham force, to-day retired after 26 years in the Gloucestershire Constabulary. Fire and water have played their part in his period of service

21 December 1936 - Gloucestershire Echo

[dink999]

For everyone's interest here are a couple of group photo's of Gloucestershire Police from "The Graphic" dated Feb 1916 and Feb 1918

Bob,

There are some more both as individuals and a group of 8 demobbed in May 1919, if you want them let me know

Dave

[Simon_Fielding]

The only Sgt. Teal on the Medal Rolls is

Teal

William

36730

Previous Unit(s):

205 Sge Bty RGA. 36730 Sgt.

which does have a RGA link -perhaps he dropped the Percy?

[Willywombat]

Dave,

Excellent! Many, many thanks for the photos.

I had found reference to both of them, but not seen them.

It is on my list to pop down to the Gloucestershire Archives, where they have a set of The Graphic and find them and photograph them in high res. How great to actually see the men themselves!

However...

Without wishing to encroach upon your time, I do have the following references which also need looking up (he says... cheekily!)

(Of course, I wouldn't expect you to do them all, but I'll list them here in case anyone else has copies of the Graphic and fancies a go at getting some good quality, high res photos!).

Bob.

Issue 06/02/15 -

Pte 7902 George William Howley, 1st Bn, Scots Guards (wounded)

Issue 03/04/15 -

Obituary, Pte 6294 William Henry Drake, 1st Bn Gloucestershire Regiment

Issue 24/04/15 -

Notice of wounding, Pte 14384 Coleman, 1st Bn Grenadier Guards

Issue 03/07/15 -

Wedding Photo:

Gnr 291660 Illes, RGA (Groom)

Sgt 291699 Towell, RGA (Best man)

Issue 08/01/16 -

Wedding photo, A/Bdr Thomas Wigmore, RGA

Issue 12/02/16 -

Obituary, Pte 11294 William Francis Hawkins, 7th Bn Gloucestershire Regiment

Obituary, A/Sgt 0297 William Silas Shute, Royal Gloucestershire Hussars

Issue 03/06/16 -

Private Frederick Gardiner, 176th Coy ASC

Private Gilbert John Tremlin, 176th Coy ASC

Issue 17/06/16 -

Obituary, Sgt 2918 Dick Townsend, Royal Gloucestershire Hussars

Issue 05/12/16 -

Obituary, Pte 13076 William Tillin Kilby, 1st Bn, Grenadier Guards

Obituary, Pte 14398 William Thomas Nash, 2nd Bn, Grenadier Guards

Obituary, Pte 10806 Valentine Arthur Bayliss Carter, Grenadier Guards

Issue 06/01/17 -

Townsend G - (apparently the caption speaks of him being an 'ex PC, aged 33, previously Gloucesters and served in India and South Africa. I'm not convinced he was a Gloucestershire officer who left to join the forces, though. Perhaps resigned before he joined up, hence why he's not on the memorial?)

Issue 13/01/17 -

Oliver Lawrence (apparently the caption speaks of a police officer with his serving family. It isn't clear if he himself is in the forces, though).

Issue 19/05/17 -

Wedding photo:

Gnr 291659 Robert Corson Hayward, RGA

Issue 22/09/17 -

Obituary, Lt Col Richard Chester Chester-Master (Chief Constable), 13th Bn KRRC

Issue 13/10/17 -

Gnr 291659 Robert Corson Hayward, RGA (wounded)

Issue 20/10/17 -

Notice of award of MM, BSM (or lower rank at that time) 40915 Charles A Chamberlain, RGA

Issue 16/02/18 -

Gunner Dowdeswell, RGA

Issue 30/11/18 -

Obituary of BSM 40915 Charles A Chamberlain, RGA

Issue 03/05/19 -

Demob photo of the following:

L/Bdr 291715 Walter J Lafford, RGA

Gnr 291700 Hubert Widdows, RGA

Gnr 291673 Edward Young, RGA

Gunner Dowdeswell, RGA

Gnr 291659 Robert Corson Hayward, RGA

Gnr 291649 Thomas Mitchell, RGA

[Willywombat]

The only Sgt. Teal on the Medal Rolls is

Teal

William

36730

Previous Unit(s):

205 Sge Bty RGA. 36730 Sgt.

which does have a RGA link -perhaps he dropped the Percy?

Thanks, Simon... yes, he's a bit of a mystery. Of course, there are different ways of spelling 'Teal', which doesn't help. (Teale, Teel?)

Mind you, I think I might drop the 'Percy' if I were him!

He enlisted 05/05/15, which is when the bunch that all went to 129 HB enlisted, so I'm surprised he doesn't have a service number in the 129 Battery series??

Again, I'm banking on his police service record being able to tell us something.

Bob.