Trench mortar batteries

[kildaremark]

Information on trench mortar batteries seems very scarce. I have gone through the various war diaries of 35 Division and got a good general feel for their development from 1916 onwards, their usage in wire cutting, trench raids, collaboration with brigade and divisional artillery as the medium batteries moved from control under Infantry brigades to the ammunition column to the divisional artillery.

A number of publications with the customary page or two on trench mortars are slightly at odds with what happens on the ground in terms of the development of trench mortar batteries.

Has anyone a copy of GHQ O.B/166 9 March 1916 "Medium & Light Trench Mortar Batteries - Policy and Organization" ?

Can anyone refer me to any document that gives the names of gunners in any medium battery i.e. RFA and RGA to see an example of the split between the services?

Is there any record of the renaming of the batteries from March 1916, for example No. 68 and No. 71 TM batteries became X/35 and Y/35 TM batteries with Z/35 newly formed while V/35 was not formed until September 1916.

Has anyone carried out any decent research on TMBs and willing to share!

Thanks

Mark

[kevinrowlinson]

Hi Mark,

Here are a few I have made a note of. Not sure whether they will be of help.

22 TMB formed 303-1915, later renumbered 91 TMB

5 TMB became 1 Y TMB

2 TMB became 1 X TMB

64 TMB became 1 Z TMB 20-3-1916

308 TMB becomes 3 Z TMB

40 TMB became 3 Y TMB

Possible 43 TMB became 3*, mentioned in 50 Div diary March 1916

87 TMB? formed 11-8-1916 in diary became 5 X TMB 5 Division

90 TMB became 5 Z TMB from Aug 1916

5 Y TMB

52 TMB, became 300 TMB became 6 Z TMB

300 TMB became 6 Z TMB

410 TMB became 7 X TMB

113 TMB became 7 Y TMB

22 TMB became 91 TMB Aug 1915 became 7?

36 TMB becomes 8 X TMB

65 TMB became 8 Y TMB

6 TMB became 12 Y TMB

10 TMB becomes 12 Z TMB

39 TMB, 14 Z TMB??

3 TMB became 15 X TMB 20-3-1916

63 TMB became 15 Z TMB 20-3-1916

27 TMB became Y 17 TMB

50 TMB becomes 17 Z TMB

97 TMB became 18 Z TMB

99 TMB became 18 Y TMB

11 TMB became 19 Y TMB

4 TMB became 19 X TMB

14 TMB formed 7-7-1915

20 TMB became 24 X TMB

98 TMB became 32 X

88 TMB becomes 32 Y TMB 2-9-1915

9 TMB became 33 X TMB 20-3-1916

61 TMB becomes 34Y TMB

68 TMB becomes 35 X TMB

71 TMB becomes 35 Y TMB

67 TMB becomes 38 Y TMB 20-3-1916

8 TMB became 47 Y TMB

29 TMB became 50 Y TMB

31 TMB became 50 X TMB

50 Z formed 2-4-1916?

32 TMB 5 Division

I think the early batteries were predominately made up by volunteer gunners, with a few infantry as well, so I would imagine no two batteries had the same number of gunners from one corps. Of the two or three diaries I have seen only one gave a gunners number and corps when being transferred or was injured, but as it obviously did not have a nominal roll it would be impossible to say what percentage were RGA and RFA in the whole battery.

Regards Kevin

[Don]

Kevin,
thats great research,fantastic.
Mark,
as Kevin says,it was a mixed bag of RGA and infantry
My grandfather Tom Walsh RGA 30315 was in several batteries in 1915,he was in TMB,22,32,42,and a nominal batt.He was a regular before the Great War. I have his service record.
He was back and forward to the TM school.
I got the impression from his record and the TMB diary,22,32,that they were very much at a experimently stage until the Stokes mortar took the lead.
I can send you his record if you like so you can see his movements between TMBs.

Regards
Gerry

[kildaremark]

Thanks Kevin and Gerry,

That's a hell of a lot of TMBs! I had assumed that there were circa 50-60 mediums before they were renumbered in March 1916 but clearly with triple digits there was something else going on.

I've also noticed that casualties seem surprisingly low for front line troops who were prime targets for counter battery work. The emplacements must have been well built.

Mark

[researchingreg]

During a visit to the IWM i saw this quote by the Stokes mortar display naming an officer (if this helps)

' .....Mortar Fire usually drew swift retaliation from the enemy. British Officer Edward Beddington Behrens described mortar crews as "the suicide club....desperate men, brave as anything, rather nervy though"'

Also during the same visit I noted that a Lt Col James Jack, had commented on the devastating effect of the Minenwerfers on British Trenches.

It might be worth looking up these two men!

[kevinrowlinson]

Thanks Kevin and Gerry,

......but clearly with triple digits there was something else going on.

Mark

Mark,

I suspect, but have no evidence to prove whether it is true, but would suggest that the triple digit numbers were the type of mortars they were using. Obviously this may have only lasted for a short time until they changed to divisional identification. The AA batteries did similar with numbered batteries starting at 200 using different guns. Viz. 308 TMB was number 8 TMB of a particular model of mortar. I may be completely wrong though. Needs further research.

Kevin

[battiscombe]

I have 2 TMB formed mainly of RFA early 1915, but replacements coming in soon from RGA , from Base

22nd TMB - a Trench Howitzer Bty.. formed from RGA [this usually seems to be the case in the early units identified as 'Trench Howitzer Bty' ].. lots of RGA in Btys in the 20s.., also 32nd Tr How Bty

35th Tr How Bty not untypical ... 8/7/1915: formed at Berthen : Lt T G Du Boisson RHA, 1 Sgt, 4 Cpls, 17 gunners RGA

from some records I have of later units most of 34th Div TMBs and 39th Div TMBs for example look to be mainly RFA rather than RGA.. many later [1916+] units were formed by men drawn from the DACs, who were ready sources of manpower .. so RFA

some Divisional records [CRA] also record when TMBs are being formed and where men are found to serve in them ..

i think most of the later Corps Heavy TMBs were RGA manned

[Chris Henschke]

Mark, I have the following if you are looking for specific information.

Stokes Trench Howitzer 3-inch Mark I. March, 1916.

Handbook for Stokes Trench Mortar, 3˝, Mark I. September 1916.

Trench Mortar Batteries. Instructions re Organization, &c., of light, medium and heavy batteries. Third Army Circular Memo. No. 22, Dated 3 September 1916. Revised 18 February 1917.

Notes on the Organization, Administration, and Tactical Employment of Light Trench Mortar Batteries. Fourth Army.

Light (Stokes) Mortar Drill (SS 183). September, 1917.

Light Mortar Training (SS 189). June 1918.

Chris Henschke

[kildaremark]

Thanks Chris PM sent.

[inkerman]

During a visit to the IWM i saw this quote by the Stokes mortar display naming an officer (if this helps)

' .....Mortar Fire usually drew swift retaliation from the enemy. British Officer Edward Beddington Behrens described mortar crews as "the suicide club....desperate men, brave as anything, rather nervy though"'

Also during the same visit I noted that a Lt Col James Jack, had commented on the devastating effect of the Minenwerfers on British Trenches.

It might be worth looking up these two men!

Hi there - I think that the IWM quote comes from 'General Jack's diary' edited by john Terraine. I have lent my copy to a friend so I cannot check. But it is a great first hand account of life in WW1.

Richard

[Chasemuseum]

Within the Australian context, trench mortar crews had two polite nicknames which have been recorded "The shoot and scoot mob" and "the duckboard harriers", due to the tendency to draw retaliatory fire. By all accounts they were very unpopular with the infantry who had to stay and wear ”the hate“. I suspect that there were a number of less polite names which have not been recorded.

Cheers

Ross

[roytoner]

anyone know how many men a Light Trench Mortar Battery would have at full complement? I've read of 69 men in a Canadian unit - is that near the mark? Interested in the 34th LTMB at Thiepval Ridge in late September 1916. They got off lightly compared to the 34th's infantry battalions in terms of those killed but would like to work out what % were wounded. 34th Brigade's diary lists 1 killed, 19 wounded and 2 missing

[Ron Clifton]

Hello kildaremark

From research I did some years ago at Kew, the numbering of TMBs went up to 114, although there were some gaps, notably in the 50s and 70s. I'm inclined to agree with Kevin that numbers in the 300s and 400s were not sequential.

When the allocation of TMBs was formalised in mid-1916, brigade TMBs were ligt, equipped with the Stokes, and were manned predominantly by infantrymen. Medium and heavy TMBs, at divisional level, were regarded as units of the RFA and RGA respectively, though this did not mean that there was no mixture of RFA and RGA men among them - in fact, that seems to have been quite common. The heavy TMBs were generally cosolidated as Corps-level units in 1918.

Roytoner

Here are the original War Establishments for various types of TMB. There were only minor changes thereafter:

September 1915 Trench Mortar Battery (4 mortars of the same type)
2 Officers, 1 Serjeant, 4 Corporals or Lance-Corporals, 16 Privates, 2 Batmen.

August 1916 Light Trench Mortar Battery (2 sections, each 4 x 3" Stokes mortars)
Captain, 3 Subalterns, 2 Serjeants, 8 Corporals or Lance-Corporals, 32 Privates, 4 Batmen.
August 1916 Medium Trench Mortar Battery (4 x 2" mortars)
2 Officers, 1 Serjeant, 4 Corporals or Bombardiers, 16 Privates, 2 Batmen.
August 1916 Heavy Trench Mortar Battery (4 x 9.45" mortars)
Captain, 2 Subalterns, 3 Serjeants, 1 Fitter, 4 Corporals, 4 Bombardiers, 47 Gunners (incl 3 telephonists), 2 Orderlies, 1 Clerk, 1 Cook, 3 Batmen.

Ron

[roytoner]

Hello kildaremark

From research I did some years ago at Kew, the numbering of TMBs went up to 114, although there were some gaps, notably in the 50s and 70s. I'm inclined to agree with Kevin that numbers in the 300s and 400s were not sequential.

When the allocation of TMBs was formalised in mid-1916, brigade TMBs were ligt, equipped with the Stokes, and were manned predominantly by infantrymen. Medium and heavy TMBs, at divisional level, were regarded as units of the RFA and RGA respectively, though this did not mean that there was no mixture of RFA and RGA men among them - in fact, that seems to have been quite common. The heavy TMBs were generally cosolidated as Corps-level units in 1918.

Roytoner

Here are the original War Establishments for various types of TMB. There were only minor changes thereafter:

September 1915 Trench Mortar Battery (4 mortars of the same type)

2 Officers, 1 Serjeant, 4 Corporals or Lance-Corporals, 16 Privates, 2 Batmen.

August 1916 Light Trench Mortar Battery (2 sections, each 4 x 3" Stokes mortars)

Captain, 3 Subalterns, 2 Serjeants, 8 Corporals or Lance-Corporals, 32 Privates, 4 Batmen.

August 1916 Medium Trench Mortar Battery (4 x 2" mortars)

2 Officers, 1 Serjeant, 4 Corporals or Bombardiers, 16 Privates, 2 Batmen.

August 1916 Heavy Trench Mortar Battery (4 x 9.45" mortars)

Captain, 2 Subalterns, 3 Serjeants, 1 Fitter, 4 Corporals, 4 Bombardiers, 47 Gunners (incl 3 telephonists), 2 Orderlies, 1 Clerk, 1 Cook, 3 Batmen.

Ron

thank you very much Ron, appreciate it

[battiscombe]

Further to this previous post, and useful list, I find in 25th Division CRA files some records that suggest that 28th Trench Mortar Bty (1 1/2 "), 30th Trench Howitzer Bty (2") and 49th Trench Mortar Battery ('4 pdr') all landed up with 25th Division by November 1915 and latterly became X/25, Y/25 and Z/25 in spring 1916 - when in that division each Bty was attached to a RFA Brigade with a regular system of rotation of officers and men between Bdes and TMBs with 1 month tours.. all RFA subalterns were expected to be sent to TM School for a TM course.. and an explicit note that "Officers commanding RFA Brigades should make certain that only good men are selected for duty with Trench Mortar Batteries"

Hi Mark,

Here are a few I have made a note of. Not sure whether they will be of help.

22 TMB formed 303-1915, later renumbered 91 TMB

5 TMB became 1 Y TMB

2 TMB became 1 X TMB

64 TMB became 1 Z TMB 20-3-1916

308 TMB becomes 3 Z TMB

40 TMB became 3 Y TMB

Possible 43 TMB became 3*, mentioned in 50 Div diary March 1916

87 TMB? formed 11-8-1916 in diary became 5 X TMB 5 Division

90 TMB became 5 Z TMB from Aug 1916

5 Y TMB

52 TMB, became 300 TMB became 6 Z TMB

300 TMB became 6 Z TMB

410 TMB became 7 X TMB

113 TMB became 7 Y TMB

22 TMB became 91 TMB Aug 1915 became 7?

36 TMB becomes 8 X TMB

65 TMB became 8 Y TMB

6 TMB became 12 Y TMB

10 TMB becomes 12 Z TMB

39 TMB, 14 Z TMB??

3 TMB became 15 X TMB 20-3-1916

63 TMB became 15 Z TMB 20-3-1916

27 TMB became Y 17 TMB

50 TMB becomes 17 Z TMB

97 TMB became 18 Z TMB

99 TMB became 18 Y TMB

11 TMB became 19 Y TMB

4 TMB became 19 X TMB

14 TMB formed 7-7-1915

20 TMB became 24 X TMB

98 TMB became 32 X

88 TMB becomes 32 Y TMB 2-9-1915

9 TMB became 33 X TMB 20-3-1916

61 TMB becomes 34Y TMB

68 TMB becomes 35 X TMB

71 TMB becomes 35 Y TMB

67 TMB becomes 38 Y TMB 20-3-1916

8 TMB became 47 Y TMB

29 TMB became 50 Y TMB

31 TMB became 50 X TMB

50 Z formed 2-4-1916?

32 TMB 5 Division

I think the early batteries were predominately made up by volunteer gunners, with a few infantry as well, so I would imagine no two batteries had the same number of gunners from one corps. Of the two or three diaries I have seen only one gave a gunners number and corps when being transferred or was injured, but as it obviously did not have a nominal roll it would be impossible to say what percentage were RGA and RFA in the whole battery.

Regards Kevin

[barkalotloudly]

if you can get hold of a copy of the history of the 32nd division " artillery and trench mortar memories"

[Martin Feledziak]

I will just drop a note on this thread so that it pops up in my list.

I have an interest with John Jenkinson killed in August 1918 setting up a 6" emplacement with Y35TMB

I have a few notes about him on this thread

 

John Platt Jenkinson, 1897 - 1918, Gunner 168060, Royal Field Artillery, Died of Wounds 08 August 1918 - Arneke Military Cemetery - France

[Y2 TMB]

Y2 TMB, picture taken in 1916 post Delville Wood, my grandfather served in both X and Y 2nd Div TMB's he volunteered previously being a Driver in the Divisional Ammunition Column. When first established they used a variety of different weapons including "French Aerial Torpedoes" his words I don't have a clue what they were. In the early days they did have the worst of it, the German Mine Thrower being a much better weapon than anything the Allies had.

[Martin Feledziak]

That is a great photograph.

are the torpedoes weapons that were sent out and head height with the intention of taking out wire defences ?

- It is a great image

Thanks for sharing.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Martin

The British did use "Bangalore torpedoes" but these were not an aerial weapon. They basically consisted of a length of drainpipe packed with explosive, which could be slid under a barbed wire entanglement and detonated, thereby - in theory at least - cutting the wire.

Ron

[Colin W Taylor]

The Germans used trench mortar s which fired bombs which were described by the British as aerial torpedoes but I couldn't match this to a certain German TM weapon though. The French presumably used a similar type of TM in this case. This is completely different to a Bangalore Torpedo, which is as Ron describes.

Colin

[Y2 TMB]

A quick google image search for "French Aerial Torpedo" threw this up

[Y2 TMB]

And this, the weapon appears to a type of spigot mortar

[Y2 TMB]

My research so far into 2nd Div TMB batteries during the Somme period seems to indicate an even spread of Gunners and Drivers all RFA men. Casualties reflect this 5 Drivers, 4 Gunners, 1 Bombadier and 1 Corporal all RFA men.

My research is confined to 2nd Division Batteries during the Somme 1916 and may well not reflect what was going on elsewhere.

[Y2 TMB]

Also found this from the Illustrared War News, An Aerial Torpedo ; A Belgian trench-mortar gunner awaiting the order to fire.