How many records survive

[gwentpal]

I apologise if this has been covered before.

I'm just curious to know how many service records survive from WW1 does anybody know of a rough figure or has seen a number mentioned in books or records. Ive come across a figure of 30% mentioned in these forums, were there certain letters of the alphabet or regiments that lost more than average.

Ive been doing research into 10th Battalion South Wales Borderers and have roughly 600 to 700 of the original battalion names with service numbers. A quick look through Borderers service records on Ancestry and ive managed to find just 9 records!!. I would have thought with a figure of 30% surviving I would have had more success than this, or am I just really unlucky.

Also where were the records being stored during WWII when they hit during the blitz.

[Drummy]

I have searched for all 2/Lancashire Fusiliers 1914 other ranks records as I have researched this battalion's activities in the first two months in detail including producing a comprehensive nominal roll, extracting information for each soldier from service/pension records, medal records, newspaper articles, awards etc etc. I found approximately 200 service or pension records. I have also nearly completed the bulk of a nominal roll for all 11/Manchester Regiment men who served in Gallipoli (original 'July' men and subsequent drafts) based on medal records and searched for each soldier's files (pension and service) and found large numbers, I have not done the maths but there are many! I search each soldier in different ways such as full name and 'manchester', full name on its own and scroll through to find matching record, service number and unit etc etc. My advice is to do a few different searches for each soldier as I find this often produces results so do not just move onto the next soldier when you have done one search. Same as SWB records on Ancestry many are listed as 'M/cr' regt and ancestry index has them as Machine Gun Corps so just searching on names / numbers will often produce results. Time consuming but rewarding. Sadly the quality of the surviving records vary massively due to water/fire damage but any information extracted is better than nothing. Thanks

[Indefatigable]

The blitzed files were at Arnside Street, Walworth, London. Full details can be found on the Long, Long Trail - see link top left hand corner of the screen. On the home page click on "How to find a soldiers service record" which is a link on the right under "On trail of the tommies" On the the page that opens click on "How to find a soldier's service record". On the right side of the page that opens will be a column entitled "related pages". From that list click on "the loss of records in the 1940's fire at Arnside Street".

regards

Indefatigable

Edited 6 August , 2014 by Indefatigable

[ss002d6252]

My advice would be to try find my past if you search for images as they are much better indexed and better quality images.

My 6th dli records are well over a 30% survival rate.

Craig

[Terry_Reeves]

The 30% is an overall figure. Within that, particular regiments or corps, or sections thereof, may have more (or less) than the quoted survival rate.

TR

[gwentpal]

Many thanks for the replies everyone.

I will admit that my first search was a quick one, i'd just searched South Wales Borderers on Ancestry and then sifted thru the numbers and was surprised how few I could find so this started me wondering about how many records had been lost.

Hopefully when I search name by name I can come up with a figure comparable to Drummy's, thanks indefatigable thats something else to read up about. I'd never even looked at find my past but will give it a go ss002 and Terry, yes that would just be my luck to be researching a regiment with a low service record survival rate. Thanks pals.

[ss002d6252]

I'd never even looked at find my past but will give it a go ss00

I've found a good few records that don't show up on Ancestry - FMP did state a figure of how many records they had and it was quite a few more than Ancestry, apparently because they had split many records that were incorrectly merged together.

Craig

[spof]

Here is a direct link to the LLT article about the fire http://www.1914-1918.net/arnside.html

The key part is at the bottom: The documents states of that of the soldier's army service records, "out of 6.5 million documents only 1.25 million have been saved"

[John_Hartley]

I'm currently researching 6th Cheshires and have identified just about 3000 who appear to have served with the battalion. The current Ancestry trawl is for the pension papers and I've been surprised how few I'm finding - perhaps 10 - 15% of those known to have been discharged for reasons, like sickness, that might attract a pension.

Havnt got to the service papers yet but am not hopeful. For a previous project, I was looking for 6th Manchesters and found none, with the exceptions of a couple related to men who had served with other regiments prior to the Manchesters. I recall other forum members saying they had also had little success finding Territorial service papers but I don't think we reached a definitive conclusion as to why that might have been the case - although a guess must be that they were held by, say, the county associations who subsequently destroyed them.

[ss002d6252]

With 6th dli very few records for pre war men survive with the exception of those who were continously serving.

Craig

[gwentpal]

I think it all depends on which regiment is being resesrched its all a bit hit and miss, I intend to search thro all names I have for the 10th SWB but dont think I'll come up with many more than the nine records I already have, ive been trying random names off my database but am having no luck. To be really pedantic does anyone know how the records were indexed was it alphabetical or by regiment.

Thanks for the link SPOF it made very interesting reading I cant believe the amount of records that were lost, might have to try a months subscription to find my past and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks all.

[ss002d6252]

To be really pedantic does anyone know how the records were indexed was it alphabetical or by regiment.

No one's completely sure - I'd be pretty certain it was by regiment and battalion.

I base this in looking at some of the records where you can see the next man's records mixed in - this seems to be how they were picked up at the fire and hurriedly put back in to some semblance of order. I can't see that they would be mixed as they are if they weren't stored closely together.

Craig

[gwentpal]

Yes I think that I agree with you Craig, this probably explains why some people get a good return on the Battalions/Regiments they are researching and others are very few and far between.

[kenf48]

A search on FMP on the collection set British Army Service Records 1914 - 1920 keyword '10th' Regiment 'South Wales Borderers' returns 769 hits I've only looked at a couple but should keep you occupied for a while. A search on all records which includes SDGW gives 1250 as CWGC has 497 that seems about right.

If you have 600 to 700 names then if the names are the same thats close to 100%! Seriously if you take the Cheshire number of 3000 quoted above I make that 25.6% which is around the average. (That's before you start going through the SWB, 19,065 hits - always assuming all are correctly indexed).

And not one for my grandfather who was posted to the 4th Bn!

Ken

[gwentpal]

Hi Ken

Thats great news, thanks for checking it will certainly be worth a subscription to sift thro these. I've managed to build up a database of about 1000 names so far from SDGW, CWGC and National Archive MICs but a trip to Kew is called for to check medal rolls. I guess like many battalions the hardest soldiers to find will be later replacements who wont be listed on the 14/15 medal roll and made it through the war.

[kenf48]

FMP offer a free trial, and like ancestry they have a library edition so you can look before you buy. You can search Ancestry using similar parameters but it's not as effective as FMP as noted above.

Ken

[spof]

Naval and Military Press appear to have put the medal rolls online - http://www.nmarchive.com/ Also SOME war diaries

Might be worth contacting them for details.

[EastSurrey]

I believe the records were stored by last overall unit served with and then by service number, with the 'deads' stored separately, which would account for the very varied survival rates.( E.g. I have found the Cavalry M.G.C. a particular problem!) There are all sorts of anomalies, which don't necessarily fit in with generalised statements made about the records. A number of men seem to have more than one record on such as Ancestry. There also seem to be a number of records included for men who left the Army before 1914. In rare cases, like my grandfather, there are men with both 'Burnt' and 'Pension' records. I found the records for my grandfather in law (Welsh Guards) in the 'Pension' Records, although he never applied for a pension and we are told the Guards kept their records separately.There is also the odd 'Burnt ' Record for a man who was later commissioned, which should have been transferred to his War Office officers file ( WO339 and 374 series).

Michael

[gwentpal]

Many thanks to everyone whos replied, especially the pals that put me onto findmypast because not only have I found far more service records than on ancestry but tucked away was a single sheet record which has answered three other posts ive had running in the last six months.

The relative I have been researching Sgt L G Bull did indeed try for officer training with 20th Officet Training Battalion as confirmed by the single piece I found. It lists how he was medically reclassified on 27.9.18 as Bii whatever this means, another line of research.

All I need now is some time this weekend to start searching the other Borderers records.

[John_Hartley]

the hardest soldiers to find will be later replacements who wont be listed on the 14/15 medal roll and made it through the war.

Yes. The hardest (and possibly impossible) will be men who joined after 1915 and then transferred elsewhere, so they are not on the regiment's BWM roll. Easier with territorials as they may have an appropriate six digit number linked to the battalion.

[kenf48]

It lists how he was medically reclassified on 27.9.18 as Bii whatever this means, another line of research.

Bii or BII or B2 is a medical fitness category as defined by the Military Service Act - broadly speaking A was fit for full duty; B was overseas and C was home, there were also 'D' category in some units. Within these there were various sub - categories which defined the level of fitness and the type of duty, Bii was able to walk five miles and see and hear sufficiently for normal purposes and therefore fit for Labour Service Abroad which might inhibit the award of a commission as his choice of posting would be limited.

The full list is here http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-on-land/general-interest/157-con-cat-war.html

and here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154834

Ken

[gwentpal]

Thanks Ken,

Its a pity that the record didnt show his grade before medical reclassification. The Officer training record shows him as belonging to E Coy South Wales Borderers so maybe he was out of front line duties before the officer course. Would classification Bii have kept him out of front line duties?, does Labour Service abroad mean he was only fit enough for the Labour Corps, although his MIC shows he only served with the Borderers.

[kenf48]

His grade prior to reclassification was A if he was with the 10th Bn on active service; thousands of men had their health broken by the rigours of war.

I think you will find 'Labour Service Abroad' is a guideline for the highest level of effort such a man could sustain it has little to do with the Labour Corps although many B2 men would be employed with them, equally some remained with their Regiment but moved to a home service battalion or reserve/training unit. A medical classification Bii would certainly keep him out of the front line.

Given the date I'd speculate he went back to the SWB Depot and was posted into one of the Reserve Battalions. When the war ended he was probably discharged early 1919.

Ke

[gwentpal]

Thanks Ken,

In a previous post about Lawrence id posted his wedding certificate dated April 1918 on which his rank showed he was attached to 20th or 28th Reserve Battalion London Regiment so it looks like his health was failing from the start of the year, hardly surprisng considering he'd been on the front from Dec 1915 and had gone thro Mametz, Pilckem and Langemarck.

Am I right in thinking 20th Reserve Battalion London Regiment was totally different to 20th Officer Cadet Battalion.

I'm pretty sure he was discharged almost straight away at the end of the war, the men of the 10th Battalion who'd been miners were the among the first to return home to go straight back to the pit. Certainly bred them hard long ago.