Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

RGA Officer without cuff insignia


m0rris

Recommended Posts

Hello

Does anyone know why Captain Dargie (front row, left) has no cuff insignia? All three Officers at the front were promoted within a month of each other however I'm looking for any further clues to help put a more precise date on the photo.

Many thanks

Will

post-87057-0-33830900-1406540893_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some officers wore cuff ranking, others didn't. It was largely a matter of personal choice. The wearing of shoulder ranking began quite early on in the war - the "1916 pattern tunic" is a myth put about by ignorant dealers and auction house staff. This photo probably dates from late 1915 to late 1916, judging by the bag for the PH helmet worn by one of the sitters and the absence of medal ribbons, service chevrons and formation signs.

[3 further, random observations:

1. They are all looking to their right - is the photographer holding up a "birdie"?

2. Note elderly-looking officer at rear right.

3. Note Rowan Atkinson at rear left.]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not having studied uniforms in detail I cannot really comment on the previous post, but the earliest I have seen that any authority allowed this was with ACI 1814 of 13th Dec. 1917, "Position of Badges of Rank-Officers". Basically saying that the wearing of badges of rank can be worn on shoulder straps or cuffs at the option of the individual. Also that if worn on shoulder then the sleeves will have plain pointed cuffs, 5 1/2in deep at the points and 2 1/2in deep at the back. The only other reference it gives is to be aware of AO 200 of 1917. I do not have this but it is entitled "Spur Chains, metal buttons and metal badges of rank. Temporary abolition of".

On the face of it I would have to say that it is at least the beginning of 1918 at the earliest. Perhaps Wainfleet has an earlier authorisation.

Kevin

Edit. I forgot to add that there is also reference to para.33 Dress Regulations of 1917 which I do not have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this is Captain Arnold Dargie .. yes? .... as Arnold was promoted t/Captain 8 Aug 1916 I think, so presumably the photo is after that date but before he was promoted acting Major in 1917. do you have the date he went to command 137 H Bty? His promotion to t/Captain might perhaps have necessitated a new uniform tunic... as one possible explanation for early adoption of shoulder ranks badges??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With 3 pips on his shoulders the orbit in FMP for the North Wales Chronicle for Dargie (& photo) gives a very clear window as to when the photo was taken

Rgds

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not having studied uniforms in detail I cannot really comment on the previous post, but the earliest I have seen that any authority allowed this was with ACI 1814 of 13th Dec. 1917, "Position of Badges of Rank-Officers". Basically saying that the wearing of badges of rank can be worn on shoulder straps or cuffs at the option of the individual. Also that if worn on shoulder then the sleeves will have plain pointed cuffs, 5 1/2in deep at the points and 2 1/2in deep at the back. The only other reference it gives is to be aware of AO 200 of 1917. I do not have this but it is entitled "Spur Chains, metal buttons and metal badges of rank. Temporary abolition of".

On the face of it I would have to say that it is at least the beginning of 1918 at the earliest. Perhaps Wainfleet has an earlier authorisation.

Kevin

Edit. I forgot to add that there is also reference to para.33 Dress Regulations of 1917 which I do not have.

As with many similar things, all these instructions were doing was officially sanctioning a practice that had had been widespread but unofficially so to that point. If you can't beat them, join them...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The officer at the back 2nd right is wearing shoulder pips.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As with many similar things, all these instructions were doing was officially sanctioning a practice that had had been widespread but unofficially so to that point. If you can't beat them, join them...

You may well be right, but one would have thought that someone must have said to a newly commissioned/promoted officer that it was permissible even if the practice started in 1914 or 1915. You would think it would really make a mockery of dress regulations otherwise. Perhaps they didn't care what they wore.

Kevin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert graves states in Goodbye to all that, that he was told to stop wearing his Wind up tunic and get one with cuff rank when he joined a Bn of the RWF after serving with a Bn of the Welsh regiment and without getting the book out, I think this was in late 1915.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks all of you for your replies. I'll take some time to digest all this new info but is does show that personal preference played a part. I suppose this is seen in differing shirt colour tones as well.
I can date the picture between 25.9.16 when George Brymer (front, centre) was promoted Major and 7.6.17 when Arnold Dargie left the battery. Lt Robert Parry Morris (front, right) was awarded the MC also 7.6.17.
It's a very tall order, but the reason for studying this in such detail is that I'm trying to work out who's who from a list of names I have for the 2nd Lieuts on the back row. Paul supplied me with the names a while back but I've recently been contacted by a relative of 2nd Lieutenant Hebert Parker who could well be here (altho' not Rowan obviously). Parker was killed with my great uncle Capt RP Morris 27.10.17.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

The officer at the back 2nd right is wearing shoulder pips.

As for 2nd Lieutenant? i can see a button and pip per shoulder. Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some officers wore cuff ranking, others didn't. It was largely a matter of personal choice. The wearing of shoulder ranking began quite early on in the war - the "1916 pattern tunic" is a myth put about by ignorant dealers and auction house staff. This photo probably dates from late 1915 to late 1916, judging by the bag for the PH helmet worn by one of the sitters and the absence of medal ribbons, service chevrons and formation signs.

[3 further, random observations:

1. They are all looking to their right - is the photographer holding up a "birdie"?

2. Note elderly-looking officer at rear right.

3. Note Rowan Atkinson at rear left.]

The PH bag gives me a possible clue, as the time frame I had was interrupted by Morris spending 3 months in hospital from being "gassed and slightly wounded". I can only imagine that after that he'd be keen to keep his gas mask at the ready, even in a photography studio. This would date the picture from his return on 24/4/17 to 7/6/17 when Dargie left.

The chap I'm after was certainly with them at this time so has to be in the picture.

Thanks

Will

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there were, presumably, quite significant periods when they were in the line and 'busy', during those 9 months, when such a photo could not have been taken? I was recently looking at an RFA battery and there were only 12 quite brief occasions over 3 years when they were in a location when a battery photo might have been taken... Does the war diary give any ideas when they may have been resting and maybe able to clean up .. and have time for a battery officer photo? That there was some 'occasion' for the photo [newly arrived Major?] might be suggested?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You may well be right, but one would have thought that someone must have said to a newly commissioned/promoted officer that it was permissible even if the practice started in 1914 or 1915. You would think it would really make a mockery of dress regulations otherwise. Perhaps they didn't care what they wore.

Kevin

As implied by Jerry and Andrew, it was down to regimental practice as to where badges of rank were worn.

For example the South Wales Borderers were one of two regiments that wore a non standard type of rank star called the 'Eversleigh pattern' and some battalions of the SWB wore their 'special' stars on the shoulder straps. This was non-regulation from a pan Army viewpoint, but as with so many other regimental dress idiosyncrasies, a blind eye was adopted and there was no attempt by dress authorities to be overbearing and insist on 100% standardisation.

As a result it was not felt necessary, until 1917, to explicitly specify that shoulder ranking 'might' be worn optionally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there were, presumably, quite significant periods when they were in the line and 'busy', during those 9 months, when such a photo could not have been taken? I was recently looking at an RFA battery and there were only 12 quite brief occasions over 3 years when they were in a location when a battery photo might have been taken... Does the war diary give any ideas when they may have been resting and maybe able to clean up .. and have time for a battery officer photo? That there was some 'occasion' for the photo [newly arrived Major?] might be suggested?

That's a good point but unfortunately the diary reveals nothing of rest periods. However I have wondered if they had the photo taken as a memento of the battery officers before Dargie left. He'd been an amateur Welsh footballer and evidently quite a character, with several of these officers attending his funeral when he was killed.

Obit here: http://cymru1914.org/en/view/newspaper/4244011/6/ART98

Football career: http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=in-memory-of-arnold-dargie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apart from anything else, there is a interesting variation in shirt, jacket and tie colors.

khaki

Khaki (still comes in many shades)

Cloth dying was and to some extent still is an art as much as a science. Different batches of cloth often have slight variations in their shade even when produced by the same manufactures. Taking into account Officers uniform was private purchase from their own chosen tailor, with each tailor probably having a different cloth supplier there are bound to be variations.

In peace time Regiments and Corps generally had their own approved tailors, often Saville Row. But only a limited few would be able to pay for such bespoke uniform (above any clothing allowance), during the war. Also why pay over the top for a uniform that may be needed for only a short period .

bill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also why pay over the top for a uniform that may be needed for only a short period .

bill

Thanks Bill,

Sometimes, (from what I have read) simply because the Colonel has said so.

khaki

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Bill,

Sometimes, (from what I have read) simply because the Colonel has said so.

khaki

Strange as that might seem it is actually so.

White shirts and black silk ties were also quite common with KD and SD when working in formation headquarters as an officer on the staff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

He'd been an amateur Welsh footballer and evidently quite a character, with several of these officers attending his funeral when he was killed.

Football career: http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=in-memory-of-arnold-dargie

How interesting.

The son of Thomas Dargie of Bayne & Dargie, Clothing & Fabrics Shop, Upper Bangor.

The shop stopped trading about 50 years ago.

Arnold Dargie's name lives on in the Anglesey football world, the Dargie Cup I think was founded in his memory.

The Dargie Cup is one of the Anglesey League's Cup competitions, still vigorously competed for annually:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesey_League#Dargie_Cup_Champions

And his link to Bangor City FC:

http://www.bangorcityfc.com/historical-blog

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert graves states in Goodbye to all that, that he was told to stop wearing his Wind up tunic and get one with cuff rank when he joined a Bn of the RWF after serving with a Bn of the Welsh regiment and without getting the book out, I think this was in late 1915.

Yes. Before Loos.

And Guards had worn shoulder rank since the year dot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How interesting.

The son of Thomas Dargie of Bayne & Dargie, Clothing & Fabrics Shop, Upper Bangor.

The shop stopped trading about 50 years ago.

Arnold Dargie's name lives on in the Anglesey football world, the Dargie Cup I think was founded in his memory.

The Dargie Cup is one of the Anglesey League's Cup competitions, still vigorously competed for annually:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesey_League#Dargie_Cup_Champions

And his link to Bangor City FC:

http://www.bangorcityfc.com/historical-blog

"Dai" - Many thanks for that - very interesting read. There's a comment from a descendent on the Bangor FC site so will see if I can can get in touch.

Major Brymer's family also had a department store in Caernarfon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The PH bag gives me a possible clue, as the time frame I had was interrupted by Morris spending 3 months in hospital from being "gassed and slightly wounded". I can only imagine that after that he'd be keen to keep his gas mask at the ready, even in a photography studio. This would date the picture from his return on 24/4/17 to 7/6/17 when Dargie left.

The chap I'm after was certainly with them at this time so has to be in the picture.

Thanks

Will

Lt Morris also has a wound stripe up, which gives further credence to this being after he was gassed (unless, of course, he was wounded before). It also dates the photo as being post July 1916, but we already knew that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lt Morris also has a wound stripe up, which gives further credence to this being after he was gassed (unless, of course, he was wounded before). It also dates the photo as being post July 1916, but we already knew that.

Thank you. I did get this from Dick Flory which lists being wounded twice but having gone through the diary I can only see one obvious incident at the end of January '17. From a personal diary written by one of the men he describes the relief at finally getting a break with 10 days rest in Bethune between May and June '17. I can only speculate that this would provide the opportunity for the photo.

'rflory', on 28 Mar 2008 - 05:34 AM, said:snapback.png

Capt. Robert Parry Morris, MC, RGA

Articled clerk to M. E. Nee of Carnarvon before the war

Enlisted as a Private in the 16th Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers on 7 December 1914

Commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Welch Royal Garrison Artillery on 30 January 1915

Promoted to Lieutenant, RGA TF on 1 June 1916

Appointed as an Acting Captain on 7 June 1917

Served in France, and twice wounded.

Military Cross, London Gazette of 4 June 1917 (there will be no citation as this is a Birthday Honour)

Killed in action on 27 October 1917 while serving with the 1/4 Welsh Siege Battery, RGA.

Sources: Record of Service of Solicitors and Articled Clerks 1914-1918; Officers who Died in the Service of the British, Indian and East African Regiments and Corps 1914-1919;various Army Lists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...