Ox & Bucks LI 'Collar Badge'

[Guest]

Hello

In 1914-18 Officers in the OBLI wore a specific collar badge described in "Records and Badges of the British Army 1900" as 'an edgeless button...[with] a piece of gold Russian braid 2 1/2 inches long is attached to the edgeless button".

I understand the collar badge/button was originally part of the attachment for the gorgette/gourgette [sp?] Does anyone know how and why the OBLI continued with this particular badge? It appears to be unique to the OBLI.

MG

[FROGSMILE]

Hello

In 1914-18 Officers in the OBLI wore a specific collar badge described in "Records and Badges of the British Army 1900" as 'an edgeless button...[with] a piece of gold Russian braid 2 1/2 inches long is attached to the edgeless button".

I understand the collar badge/button was originally part of the attachment for the gorgette/gourgette [sp?] Does anyone know how and why the OBLI continued with this particular badge? It appears to be unique to the OBLI.

MG

When collar badges were introduced in 1874, as a largely quid pro quo sop for the loss of regimental buttons, the OLI (as they were then, and until 1908) were offered a standard 'strung bugle' as a collar badge that was considered appropriate for all the light infantry regiments. The OLI demurred, feeling that as the senior and, in their eyes, most famous LI regiment it was unnecessary (and perhaps beneath their dignity), so at first they wore none at all.

However, the OLI soldiers were teased by other regiments for having no such badges and, after 1881, when the 52nd merged with the 43rd, it was decided to resurrect an old 52nd practice of wearing the button and cord as a representation of the upper buttons on the old coatee that had once been used to suspend the officers gorget.

When the 1st Battalion went to India, in the late 1880s, the other ranks emulated this from their officers and by the start of the 2nd Anglo/Boer war it had become a standard regimental insignia.

It was indeed a unique practice.

[Steven Broomfield]

I recall reading somewhere, many years ago, that the reason the 52nd wore them was that they returned home from overseas at some point in the early- to mid-19th century to find everyone else had stopped wearing gorgets, and they still were, so decided to keep the cords as a recognition of this fact. Who knows - it might be true!

Actually, here's a question about DCLI collar dogs. When i visited the Museum (in Bodmin) recently, the regiment seems to have had a collar badge representing the county's coat of arms and motto (15 golden bezants and the motto "One and All"), yet there were also photographs and uniforms clearly showing the same badge as the cap badge.

I hope Martin will excuse the hi-jacking, but any thoughts on that, F-M?

[FROGSMILE]

I recall reading somewhere, many years ago, that the reason the 52nd wore them was that they returned home from overseas at some point in the early- to mid-19th century to find everyone else had stopped wearing gorgets, and they still were, so decided to keep the cords as a recognition of this fact. Who knows - it might be true!

Actually, here's a question about DCLI collar dogs. When i visited the Museum (in Bodmin) recently, the regiment seems to have had a collar badge representing the county's coat of arms and motto (15 golden bezants and the motto "One and All"), yet there were also photographs and uniforms clearly showing the same badge as the cap badge.

I hope Martin will excuse the hi-jacking, but any thoughts on that, F-M?

The 'one and all' collar badge was adopted as the first collar badge of the 'new' regiment when the 32nd merged with the 46th in 1881.

The early collar badges of many of the newly territorialised regiments bore some association with the county to which they were affiliated with a view to being inclusive with the Militia, who in many cases were of greater antiquity and with their own much prized insignia. Most of these things were worked out in regimental committees at the time of merger.

The miniature cap badge was adopted to be worn with SD in 1902.

[Guest]

I recall reading somewhere, many years ago, that the reason the 52nd wore them was that they returned home from overseas at some point in the early- to mid-19th century to find everyone else had stopped wearing gorgets, and they still were, so decided to keep the cords as a recognition of this fact. Who knows - it might be true!

Actually, here's a question about DCLI collar dogs. When i visited the Museum (in Bodmin) recently, the regiment seems to have had a collar badge representing the county's coat of arms and motto (15 golden bezants and the motto "One and All"), yet there were also photographs and uniforms clearly showing the same badge as the cap badge.

I hope Martin will excuse the hi-jacking, but any thoughts on that, F-M?

The badge was/is the arms of the Duchy of Cornwall, correctly: on a field sable, fifteen bezants or, five, four, three, two, one. . In English that means a black shield with 15 gold coins arranged in a triangle. It was originally used by the Royal Cornwall Rangers, Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry (the Cornwall Militia battalion) which became the 3rd Bn DCLI in 1881. Kipling and King page 311 describes the Shako plate thus:

An eight pointed star, the topmost point displaced by the Prince of Wales's plumes, coronet and motto. On this a shield bearing fifteen bezants. Below a scroll inscribed One and All. The shield and motto in white metal, remainder in blackened brass (fig 1218)

Glengarry: 1874-1881: A strap inscribed Royal Cornwall Rangers surmounted by a coronet. Within this a shield bearing fifteen bezants and below a scroll inscribed One and All. In brass. (Fig 1219)

I happened to know as my wife's great grandfather was in the Cornwall Volunteers and still has his cross-belt plate of similar design. A beautiful badge.

So I think it is a throwback to the Militia battalion and may well have been worn as a mark of distinction by the 3rd (Militia) Battalion. The only VB variation from the regulars I am aware of is the addition on an oval with VB to the 1st VB cap badge based on the usual bugle-horn with strings taken up into a coronet, a scroll inscribed Cornwall.

MG

[Guest]

The 'one and all' collar badge was adopted as the first collar badge of the 'new' regiment when the 32nd merged with the 46th in 1881. The early collar badges of many of the newly territorialised regiments bore some association with the county to which they were affiliated with a view to being inclusive with the Militia, who in many cases were of greater antiquity and with their own much prized insignia. Most of these things were worked out in regimental committees at the time of merger.

The miniature cap badge was adopted to be worn with SD in 1902.

I think the Essex Regt did something similar: A shield bearing three sea-axes. - the Arms of the County of Essex.

FROGSMLE - while you are here do you have any thoughts on the double-strapped Sam-Browne. I know you answered a previous PM on this but there is a school of thought that the double-strapped Sam-Browne is not a Sam Browne and was invented by an Officer in the 60th Rifles in India independently of Sam-Brown's belt.

All relating to the OBLI as you know. MG

[Guest]

When collar badges were introduced in 1874, as a largely quid pro quo sop for the loss of regimental buttons, the OLI (as they were then) were offered a standard 'strung bugle' as a collar badge that was considered appropriate for all the light infantry regiments. The OLI demurred, feeling that as the senior and, in their eyes, most famous LI regiment it was unnecessary (and perhaps beneath their dignity), so at first they wore none at all.

However, the OLI soldiers were teased by other regiments for having no such badges and, after 1881, when the 52nd merged with the 43rd, it was decided to resurrect an old 52nd practice of wearing the button and cord as a representation of the upper buttons on the old coatee that had once been used to suspend the officers gorget.

When the 2nd Battalion went to India, in 1898, the other ranks emulated this from their officers and by the start of the 2nd Anglo/Boer war it had become a standard regimental insignia.

It was indeed a unique practice.

Marvelous. Thank you. SO it would be safe to say it was (re)started in 1881 after the merger of the 43rd and 52nd... Thanks. MG

[FROGSMILE]

I think the Essex Regt did something similar: A shield bearing three sea-axes. - the Arms of the County of Essex.

FROGSMLE - while you are here do you have any thoughts on the double-strapped Sam-Browne. I know you answered previos PM on this but there is a school of thought that the double-strapped Sam-Browne is not a Sam Browen and was invented by an Officer in the 60th Rifles in India independently of Sam-Brown's belt.

All relating to the OBLI as you know. MG

I'm afraid that is simply wrong. The Sam Browne belt was adopted for officers' field dress by all British Army units in the late 1890s and first appeared in the Dress Regulations for officers of the Army in 1900.

Initially it was worn with both braces (as they were termed) when in FMO (field marching order). Since I last spoke to you on this I have obtained a book showing 1 RWF in WW1 and, in both 1914 and 1915, the group photos of officers show both braces being worn, including (to my surprise) by the commanding officer. By 1916 the photos show many officers wearing the mens' 08 pattern web equipment.

When the belts were worn out-of-the-line, only one brace was deemed necessary and so the practice began of wearing it in that manner.

After the war several regiments wore both braces when in SD as a regimental distinction. The OBLI were one, the Cameronians another and there was also a Hussar regiment whose name escapes me.

Marvelous. Thank you. SO it would be safe to say it was (re)started in 1881 after the merger of the 43rd and 52nd... Thanks. MG

Yes.

[Guest]

I'm afraid that is simply wrong. The Sam Browne belt was adopted by all British Army units in the late 1890s and first appeared in the Dress Regulations for officers of the Army in 1900.

Initially it was worn with both braces (as they were termed) when in FMO (field marching order). Since I last spoke to you on this I have obtained a book showing 1 RWF in WW1 and, in both 1914 and 1915, the group photos of officers show both braces being worn, including (to my surprise) by the commanding officer. By 1916 the photos show many officers wearing the mens' 08 pattern web equipment.

After the war several regiments wore both braces when in SD as a regimental distinction. The OBLI were one, the Cameronians another and there was also a Hussar regiment whose name escapes me.

Thanks for the clarification. I have seen lots of other units wear the double braces in early Great War Photos. It seems that the double braces were de rigeur up to 1914 and at some stage changed (with the exception of the ones you mentioned). A number of the standard group photos of officers prior to embarking for War show the double braces.

I have often wondered why the near universal change to single cross strap.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the clarification. I have seen lots of other units wear the double braces in early Great War Photos. It seems that the double braces were de rigeur up to 1914 and at some stage changed (with the exception of the ones you mentioned). A number of the standard group photos of officers prior to embarking for War show the double braces.

I have often wondered why the near universal change to single cross strap.

The double brace was designed to balance pistol and sword and if the pistol handle was turned inwards it could be drawn with equal dexterity by either hand.

Once the sword was officially discarded the second brace was felt no longer necessary and, once the officers started wearing the mens' 08 web equipment in action, the Sam Browne became nothing more than a visible indicator of rank and status, discernible at a glance, when out of the line.

In that form of dress it was more convenient and less fiddly to wear a single brace.

[FROGSMILE]

Here is an image of the unique, Oxf & Bucks LI collar badge, as worn on full dress.

[Guest]

When collar badges were introduced in 1874, as a largely quid pro quo sop for the loss of regimental buttons, the OLI (as they were then, and until 1908) were offered a standard 'strung bugle' as a collar badge that was considered appropriate for all the light infantry regiments. The OLI demurred, feeling that as the senior and, in their eyes, most famous LI regiment it was unnecessary (and perhaps beneath their dignity), so at first they wore none at all.

Nice photo of the uniform post #11. Thanks for posting

Curious to know why the OBLI (or OLI) was considered 'senior' to other Light Infantry Regiments. I assume this was because they were the first to be so designated rather than their place in the line (43rd and 52nd) compared to, say the forbears of the Somerset Light Infantry (13th Foot) or DCLI (32nd Foot and 46th). Was this 'official' or simply the way they considered themselves 'senior' to other LI regiments? Presumaby the Somerset Light Infantry would be right of the line of a number of LI regiments...?

[FROGSMILE]

Nice photo of the uniform post #11. Thanks for posting

Curious to know why the OBLI (or OLI) was considered 'senior' to other Light Infantry Regiments. I assume this was because they were the first to be so designated rather than their place in the line (43rd and 52nd) compared to, say the forbears of the Somerset Light Infantry (13th Foot) or DCLI (32nd Foot and 46th). Was this 'official' or simply the way they considered themselves 'senior' to other LI regiments? Presumaby the Somerset Light Infantry would be right of the line of a number of LI regiments...?

They were not senior in the conventional sense of longevity and when on parade would have taken their place in line of precedence (i.e. unbroken existence).

It was in being the first line regiments to be 'converted', en masse to light infantry, that gave them their sense of fame.

They, both 43rd and 52nd, were selected by Sir John Moore for special training at Shorncliffe, in Kent, in 1803 and date their conversion from that time. Together with the 95th (later Rifle Brigade) they formed the famous Light Division.

Most other LI regiments seem to have been converted around 1808 specifically to meet the need for whole units trained in skirmishing during the Peninsula campaign against Napoleon, although some others were made LI much later, when it had become merely an honorific with no practical application of any tactical meaning.

However, as always with the British regimental system there is some dispute as to the 43rd and 52nd being the first light infantry 'regiment', as the 85th (Bucks Volunteers) Regt, who later became 2nd Bn KSLI believe that they were the first.

This is on the basis that the original 85th Regiment (from whom they erroneously claim association),was raised as “the Royal Volontiers” Light Infantry by Col. John Craufurd in Shrewsbury Castle in 1759; and as such was the first actual regiment of Light Infantry to be raised from scratch in the British army.

In reality this is quite disingenuous, as a number of other 'light infantry' regiments were formed in the same year, but in the months succeeding, and thus with higher numbers (e.g. 86th, 90th, etc.) in terms of seniority. All were disbanded at the end of the 7-years war and thus continuity was lost and the only meaningful 'association' is the Shrewsbury connection.

Although this first 85th (LI) saw active service against the French and their allies, it never fulfilled its originally intended purpose as light infantry - service in the woodlands of North America. The first 85th was disbanded on the conclusion of the war in 1763 and a general reduction of the army.

[Guest]

Thanks Frogsmle.

Wonderful photos. Any idea of who they are (first two)? MG

Also any idea when swords were officially abandoned. I read that Montgomery tripped over his sword at Le Cateau and it probably saved his life and another Northumberland Fus Officer at Mons took a bullet on his sword and was relieved to have to discard it. None of that romantic nonsense for him. MG