What uniform is this Suffolk regiment soldier wearing ?

[Mac657]

Hello all, can anyone shed any light on what unifrom these soldiers are wearing ?

The soldier in the centre is 6941 Pte Fred Haylock, 1st bn, The Suffolk regt, who became a POW at some point during the war, i don't know when. There is a suggestion in the family that the picture was taken in a german POW camp, i'm not so sure. They look too smart and 'together' in my opinion for that to be the case.

Thanks for any help,

Mac.

[Sepoy]

This does look like a typical Prisoner of War photograph with the guys wearing provided uniforms. I would however be grateful if you could post a close up of the seated Soldier's cap and badge, because it looks like a Norfolk Regiment badge rather than a Suffolk Regiment. The other two are wearing a Royal Artillery (RHA/RFA/RGA) cap badge and a Coldstream Guards cap badge.

I am aware that the Crown of the Suffolk Regiment cap badge may be hidden by the cap, but the scrolls appear to be to prominent.

Sepoy

[Stebie9173]

The (sewn-in) armlet and the stripes down the trousers are strong pointers towards this being a POW photograph.

Steve.

[Mac657]

Thanks for your replies gents, i stand corrected !

I know nothing about the subject of WW1 POW's although i am aware that quite a number of The Suffolks were taken prisoner.

So what do the chevrons denote ? Are they a copy of the chevrons normally worn on British uniforms ? And is there any particular purpose or reason why this group picture may have been taken ?

This is the best i can do on the close up i'm afraid.

I've also attached what i believe to be his MIC, no service records as of yet.

Mac

[Mac657]

I'm not convinced it's a Suffolk cap badge either now !

[Stebie9173]

I would be very hesitant to attribute anything on the uniforms (apart from the POW markings) to the men wearing them. They are certainly not khaki, and judging by the tone of the photo are possibly dark blue. We would normally attribute 10 years good conduct to the sleeve stripes, but as I said, not necessarily to the man wearing the uniform! I would imagine that men would only wear their own Regiment's cap badge however.

A list of missing men appeared in the Times of 31-10-1914 showing many men of the 2nd Suffolks missing at Le Cateau on 26-8-1914. Fred Haylock is not on that list, though neither is my great-uncle (see signature below) who definitely was captured at Le Cateau. For original men of the 2nd Suffolks I would recommend that you look through the local papers for 1914 (usually on microfilm at local libraries) to eliminate this possibility before you cast the net wider.

Steve.

EDIT: His date of entry shows he was with 2nd Battalion during the first part of the war, not the 1st. Is he the Frederick Haylock born at Shimpling and serving with 1st Battalion in 1911?

[Sepoy]

It is not the Norfolks either.....

[Sepoy]

It is possible that PoWs were issued with replacement cap badges, examples of which can be seen in this photograph of British PoWs. The badges appear similar in design to the one worn by Pte Haylock, but his does not have a crown. Is anyone aware of PoW cap badges - I have never seen one other then in the attached photograph.

Sepoy

[Mac657]

Steve, yes he is, i have census records for him born in Shimpling or Sudbury, Suffolk (they are the same place). Sorry it may have helped if i mentioned that i found him on the 1911 census with the 1st battalion in Egypt.

Mac.

[Stebie9173]

He probably did the same thing as my great-uncle - enlisted in 1905; served part of his contracted twelve years on active service and then transferred to Reserve going back to a civilian job (Walter Brooksbank did so after 7 years in December 1912, which was the norm). These men were due to stay on Reserve until 1917, but war meant they were recalled to the Army in early August 1914 and went to France with the 2nd Battalion.

Walter received his basic training at the Suffolk Regiment Depot at Bury St Edmunds and then was posted to the 1st Battalion (at that point serving in the UK at Woolwich) after four months. The 1st Battalion went to Malta in 1907 and then to Egypt in January 1911 where the 1911 Census caught them. Fred's enlistment was probably about six month earlier than Walter's (Walter's regimental number was 7199) but I suspect their later movements with 1st Battalion were the same. Again, Fred probably transferred to Reserve in mid 1912.

Steve.

[Chief_Chum]

Fred Haylock and Walter Brooksbank were both captured at Le Cateau serving with 2/Suffolk.

Both were PoWs in Doeberitz Camp in January 1916.

Originally PoWs wore the uniforms they were captured in but, as they wore out, uniforms had to be supplied for them from the UK. Many of the uniforms were Kitchener Blue uniforms which were redundant by mid-1915 and were a ready-made source of clothing. Additional clothing was made in the same dark blue serge to supplement the stocks. Gaps were cut in one sleeve of the jackets, and both legs of the trousers. Khaki drill cloth was sewn into the gaps. The three soldiers in the original photograph are wearing the dark blue version of the standard Service Dress uniform as worn by most of the men of 4th New Army in training.

Rank badges, medal ribbons and service chevrons are often seen on the dark blue uniforms and will almost certainly be the badges from the wearer's original khaki SD. Ranks and entitlement to Good Conduct chevrons were unaffected by imprisonment.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Taff

[Mac657]

Thank you very much Taff, i appreciate your reply, it certainly does help and gives me plenty to work on. I see you have some Suffolks listed in your signature block, is that how you came by the info regarding Fred and Walter from ?

Mac

[Stebie9173]

Thanks for the extra information on Walter B., Taff.

The local papers also mention him at Doberitz in March 1916 and it is noted in his service records.

Just for the record, here is another of the "mystery" Suffolk cap badges:

http://www.blisworth.org.uk/images/WWar%20I/Other-records.htm

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Just stumbled across a (new?) website with the Doberitz Gazette:

http://doberitz.com/page34.html

Can this be a reference to Fred?

Homepage:

http://doberitz.com

Steve.