Mitter2k1 Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Here is another M1912 Cotton Summer Coat and Breeches. I have been on a roll with summer coats as of late and have made some pretty solid acquisitions. This coat is unique to my others in the fact that it does not have the holes for collar disks. It does however have evidence of Officers collar insignia and rank. Unfortunately these were not included and were nowhere to be found on the auction site. So I suspect that they have been gone for a while and I may never know specifically what kind of officer and his rank. What is curious though is the lack of a cuff braid or any evidence of one being present. This coat also did not have a tag contract tag sewn into it anywhere. So the information may of been stamped somewhere and washed or faded away a long time ago. The buttons are held on with clips rather than the common rings and I have not removed one as of yet to see their place of manufacture. The breeches are very nice with the exception of two holes just below one of the pockets and they are lacking the laces for the calves. They are in excellent condition with all tags (Contract and Size) present. The size stamping on the inside is still fresh and legible. These have an interesting stamp on one of the pockets. It is stamped "128, C. 40" which seems that it could be 128th Regiment, Company C, 40th Division. But the 40th Division did not have any 128th Artillery or Infantry units so I have some researching to do on this. Anyways here are some pictures of the items. As always if you have questions or comments please do not hesitate. Thanks, Mike M. Breeches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Nice one. I have several sets of these too. There is quite a bit of colour variation in mine, not all due to wear/fading I think. Here is the $64,000 question..... ever used in Europe or just stateside? They show up with divisional insignia (which in my view are almost all (as in 99.9%) post-war) but have you ever seen any of these show up in European photos? I have not. Certainly used in the 1916 Border Campaign of course. their status is interesting for me. The ones I have are almost universally really small! 36" waist is impressive..... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 There is quite a variation in color. This newer one is a different color than my other khaki coat even though it doesn't show up in photos very well. I need a chance to maybe photograph these outdoors under natural light to show the difference a bit better. I will post a pic of all my summer uniform items together to show a difference. As for summer uniforms used in Europe, I cannot say that I have seen a definite answer for that. I have seen hundreds of photos but any that were taken on the front show them in wool. And I do not know if this was a supply issue and maybe they went over in khaki and switched to wool. If that was the case I would assume that the first troops over wore out the khaki uniforms rather quickly. And being that we arrived in June 1917 with winter essentially right around the corner, maybe all back up uniforms carried by the soldiers and all supply shipments were only wool uniforms. I would have to ask around and do a little investigating to know for certain. And yes those pants are huge. Most that I have seen are not "human sized" and are made for smaller, younger men. I put them with my coat that is approx. a 42 and if this was worn by a man, he would of been the biggest guy in the company. I will say that I have seen one coat bigger than mine and I think it was a 44 and mine is only going by me measuring it. However I was surprised when I saw them listed together for a rather cheap price.The coat I not believe is original to the pants, I think they were thrown together to make a quick sale. Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 11 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2013 Well I decided to drag out the summer uniforms and breeches one more time before storing them for the winter. I took a pic in direct sunlight to show the variations in color. On the left is my olive coat, breeches, my large coat and then the latest one I picked up. There is actually a difference in the last two. The one on the right has a slight green tint to it. I wish I could pick it up with my phone, but it was cold so I did the ol' one and done. Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 31 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2013 Okay Chris, I may have an answer to your $64,000 question about cotton being used other than state side. Here is what I have learned from a gentleman I had a conversation with last night. He said they were not used on the front and I will explain why. First there were not enough of them to supply the army Europe. Most were already allocated to places like the Philippines, Hawaii and the Mexican border areas. By the time the cotton uniform arrived, the War was over and troops were heading home. So they were issued a new uniform to use when they got back to the states. This makes the most sense to me and I am not saying it is a fact as we all know that this may or may not be the case. So if anyone one has any hard evidence that would prove otherwise I would be glad to hear it. Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 31 December , 2013 Share Posted 31 December , 2013 Hi Mike Thanks, that mostly fits with my thoughts, as I said I have never seen any photographs showing the cotton uniforms in Europe. Actually I rather doubt any attempt was made to send cotton uniforms to Europe at all - given the temperate climate the wool would have been quite sufficient (as demonstrated by the all the European armies) In addition, given that the US entered the was in April and there was no chance at all that significant numbers of men would be in Europe by the summer of 1917, I doubt that any were sent (shortage or no). The only chance I can see of the uniforms making it to Europe is if units deployed with them and then received wool in Europe. For example a division like the 33rd who trained in Texas (Camp Logan) throughout the summer of 1917 and didn't leave for France until late spring 1918 may well have had the uniforms in Texas (although the photographic record is scant and appears to show men in shirt sleeve as opposed to cotton tunics so I assume they already had wool then....however it is clear they wore cotton in 1916 on the Mexican Border campaign). All the photos of troop ships I have seen going over show wool. I have seen Cotton tunics with discharge and overseas chevrons on however. The most obvious explanations for this are of course that these were the tunics that men were issued on demobilization state-side (especially if in a southern state) or that the insignia were added at a later date (which we can never really discount) Personally I have never seen anything to suggest they saw service in Europe so it is good to hear that I am not alone in thinking this. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 31 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2013 There is something in the back of my mind that says I am going to be wrong about this. I'm actually going to dig around and see if there is one piece of evidence that may throw a wrench into the gears. I know how soldiers are and there has to be at least 1 example that can disprove the wool only theory. There are just too many variables (soldiers) for it not to of happened at least that 1 time. Wish me happy hunting, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 1 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2014 I found another bit of information that was interesting. The unlined wool tunics were known as the transitional tunic from the M1917 to the M1918. These were called the M1917/18 and these eliminated the lining but still have the pockets hung on the outside. And when the Army went to the M1918, the hidden pockets were added to the tunic. To summarize, M1917-Pockets hung on outside and still retained the lining, M1917/18- Pockets hung on the outside and the lining was eliminated, M1917-Pockets hung on the inside (hidden) and the lining was eliminated. Interesting how they basically made the changes in steps in an effort to conserve materials. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Mike Here is my M1918 - it just arrived. It is part of an identified grouping with trousers and a photo of the owner. It is quite small and some of the seams are getting a bit loose. The lining is cotton (but quite thick - almost like the material used on the M1912s - quite a dark "british" Khaki colour. The tunic itself is brownish and the wool feels thinner than on my non private purchase 1917 tunics. I have tried to take some pictures of the pocket / lining construction and the collar although things are a bit chaotic here after some home repairs so these are just for now and I will try and get some better ones taken later in the week. Chris Overall view with inside pockets Cotton lining Collar lining / construction Pocket construction Stamp on pocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Comparison of colour (this is the tunic laid over the much greener shade of wool in the breeches that came with the set) MTC collar disk MTC shoulder patch Nice bullion rank insignia Victory medal ribbon and interesting gaiters -- common design but these are the first I have seen that are leather covered with cotton (my others are all either leather - "officer's style" or canvas "leggins") they have the owners initials in them. Interestingly there is no discharge chevron on this tunic but there are two overseas stripes. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 That's awesome Chris. There isn't anything there that you can't like and the bullion on the MTC rank is beautiful. Those leggings are odd. I've never seen anything like them and I wonder what their story is? I have never heard of that style or seen anything remotely close. I'd be interested in finding out for you if you like. I know some rather knowledgeable guys I could ask with your permission. I also have some things in the works and I should be adding a few to this thread in the next couple of weeks so I'll keep you posted. Thanks for sharing, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Sure ask away! I have seen similar British leggins covered in fabric. I have several sets of US ones that are polished leather (one brown set one black set) These are the same design and are fully leather inside but covered as you see. If more photos are needed I can supply them. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Ok I'll do that. Could you post a couple of more pics that I can use? Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Compared to a standard leather pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Thanks and I forgot to ask if your uniform still had the tag present. I'm curious about what spec it was if it is still there. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Nope - the only marking in the uniform is the stamp shown. However here is a tag from another 1918 uniform (another one en route this one should be in much better condition but without patches/insignia) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 16 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2014 Ok Chris I believe I have a suitable answer for your leggings. A gentleman at USMF said that these look like some of the private purchase leggings that were available during the war. He went on to say that virtually everything was copied and a number of items were modified to appeal to the soldier. I looked around a bit and actually located a pair made in the same laminated fashion of canvas over pigskin leather. They were on ebay and were in the style with the long strap that wraps around the leg and then fastens to the buckle at the top. I believe they were copied from the M1907 leggings and now I cannot find the listing. While not completely rare, they are uncommon and quite interesting. So all in all, a very nice addition to you collection. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 January , 2014 Share Posted 16 January , 2014 Thanks, Mike. I too saw the leggings to which you are referring. I hope to have a bit of a sort out over the next week or so and will try and take some decent pictures of my US tunics when I do. I will probably be able to get at my cotton uniforms in this process too. I'm still missing my 4th Div jacket.... I have a couple of Navy sets too - but those are notoriously difficult (at least for me) to date accurately. I am going to try and make some detailed notes on tags/labels/contracts (although few have them) and catalogue the variations in the jackets. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 17 January , 2014 Share Posted 17 January , 2014 So... here is another recently acquired M1918 Jacket. Nice shape - buttons seem to have been resewn and there is a hole in the sleeve lining and a couple of very small moth holes in the sleeve but overall in great shape and with the contract tab (as shown above) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 17 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2014 Well done and another beautiful coat Chris. I wish you good luck when cataloging your collection. I have made a similar attempt to do the same. It was quite a task to pick out the differences among the different specs within the models. I tried to use this to figure out which spec a coat, minus the tag, would fall under. I think that I bit more off than I could chew with that and just settled for knowing which model the tunic was at this time. Thanks for adding this one, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 17 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2014 I have two wool M1917's on the way and one has a pair of breeches. One is in near mint condition and the other I am not too sure. It looks good from what I can see and the pants seem to be pretty solid as well. The pictures for the mint one I will go ahead and post. I am hoping I have it by the end of next week. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 January , 2014 Share Posted 18 January , 2014 Couple more of mine. Except for the absence of the collar label this M1917 looks unissued with no signs of wear and a very clear tag And an interesting cotton coat in quite a dark khaki colour with a third army patch and discharge chevron and nice collar disk. Breeches are slightly paler (and greener) and may be private purchase but match nicely in terms of condition and have been together for a long time. Colour reproduction here is not good (flash influenced) the closest to the real colour on my monitor is how the coat appears under the breeches. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitter2k1 Posted 18 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2014 Those look great! We are going to have to compare uniform labels to see if we have any made under the same spec. Do you have any that are under the same number in your collection? I am curious if they are identical or have some small subtle differences. Thanks for keeping this going, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murrough Posted 20 January , 2014 Share Posted 20 January , 2014 This 35th US Division,138 infantry Regiment uniform, might be attributable to a PVT.J.Burke.Missouri Digital Heritage : Soldiers' Records: War of 1812 - World War IThe tunic collar disk indicated Co D. and there is a faint mark with the name Burke but the rank is wrong, the records indicate CPL. but the roster of the MO NG do list a Burke in Co D.http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/p337.gifThe Div patch indicates the 138 infantry REGt. so I am pretty sure its the right man but any pointers would be welcome, the pocket also contained the single button( not collar disk) which I was told was a button of the 5th MO NG.Well, enough of my confused ramblings. as I said any help would be appreciated. Label is on the inside of the collar and colour is darker than it looks in the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murrough Posted 20 January , 2014 Share Posted 20 January , 2014 More pics, breeches label and name inside tunic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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