towisuk Posted 9 November , 2013 Share Posted 9 November , 2013 Watching the re-run of the Fromelles exhumations and reburials on television this evening I turned to my trench maps again.... I had spotted the eight pits that had been dug at Pheasant wood marked on one of them (map excerpt below) when the topic first arose, and a year before the test dig began. So this evening this set me to wondering what happened to all the other bodies still missing in the area, so it was back to my maps, and there are other similar earth works marked on the same map in the vicinity of the light railway used to transport the bodies to the burial pits. I was wondering if anyone knew of plans by the authorities to have a look at these other sites in the future... regards Tom Pheasant Wood............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 11 November , 2013 Share Posted 11 November , 2013 Fascinating... I wonder if the authorities are eager to start digging (again)... Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 11 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2013 Hi Roel, I believe the original work and pressure for the exhumation of the bodies at Pheasant wood was done by Lambis Englezos and others in Australia.... If it wasn't for them, the remains of 250 soldiers would still lie in 5 of the pits at the side of the wood, but now they have a grave, many of them with a name on the headstone thanks to the efforts of our Australian friends. But I was wondering if the authorities had taken it upon themselves to have someone research the locality for more mass burials. But I suppose that is a bit of wishful thinking, better to spend millions on an opening ceremony for the Olympics than to do their duty for the men that paid the ultimate sacrifice for the failure of politics..... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 11 November , 2013 Share Posted 11 November , 2013 Additional pits have been mooted by well informed folk on this Forum over the years. Given the shambolic state of the Australian Graves Service just after the war, it would certainly not be surprising if additional burials were missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 11 November , 2013 Share Posted 11 November , 2013 That sector of the Fromelles battlefield was fought over in two major battles and innumerable lesser actions between 1914 and 1918, so I have no doubt that there are still undiscovered isolated remains lying in the terrain that was NML, despite recoveries by both sides during the war and the post-war clearance that resulted in the creation of VC Corner, but does the fact that only five of the eight pits dug behind Pheasant Wood were actually used not suggest that there were no further 'enemy' bodies from the 19-20 July battle in that sector that were accessible to the Germans and required 'mass burial'? The order given by the commanding officer of RIR21 on 21 July to prepare graves in the German cemetery extension behind the church at Beaucamps for approximately 300 German dead was presumably based on a roll call after the battle, but his instruction to dig burial pits for 'approximately 400 bodies' behind Pheasant Wood must have been an estimate of the number of 'enemy' dead lying within his positions and the near part of NML. In the event, 250 bodies were buried in five pits, and all eight pits would have accommodated 400. Towisuk's map with spots representing the 8 pits contains the word 'Avenue', so is presumably a British map based on known aerial photographs. What is the date of that map, and where are the 'earth works' that you think might represent other 'mass burials', Tom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2013 The map section I posted was one from Feb 1917.... the other earthworks noted are nearer the front lines, so I thought that having used these first (less transporting required) they then used the pits at pheasant wood. If 250 bodies were found in 5 pits at Pheasant wood, what happened to the hundreds of others still missing from the battles in that area... It's the unaccounted number of missing from that part of the front line that suggests that they were buried in other pits nearby. I don't want to post the section of map that I believe may point to other mass burials, for the same reason that the pits at Fromelles were "protected " between test digs and recovery of the bodies. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 What you say is very possible Tom and may help with the location of the missing British. My own opinion is that due to the tenacity of those involved with the Pheasant Wood discoveries the authorities were dragged "kicking & screaming" into taking action, something in my opinion they will be totally reluctant to undertake in respect of other possible mass grave sites. It is worth mentioning that it will have taken five years for the British MOD to finally act on attempting the identification of the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 and next year there will be at least another 60 sets of remains buried which date back to at least 2009 and maybe even earlier. Given these facts sadly I cannot see the British MOD being at all interested in any involvement in possible new mass graves. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2013 I agree Norman, but if pressure hadn't come from the Australian end for the Pheasant wood site that would never have got done. so we can only hope that they can bring pressure to bear from their end again...that may help a little. Of course they are involved in other mass burial sites around Bullecourt at the minute, so it's not fair that they should do all the work of chasing the authorities from their end. Now there's an election coming up that coincides with the all the interest in commemorations of WW1, it would help to have questions raised in the press and television about the governments attitude towards the recovery and identification of remains. I could see that no party would like to appear lackluster in their attitude towards the fallen, if they look culpable in breaking their covenant with the soldiers who gave their lives for their country, what would the public make of that. Now that would be bad press, it's ok showing troops brought back from Afghanistan and buried with military honours, but the fallen from WW1 should be accorded the same dignity, at least of trying to find and identify the remains, and having a decent burial alongside their comrades. It may be time for a fresh letter writing blitz to mp's and newspapers.... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 I have always thought that the complete shutdown of the battle clearances was precipitate and purely cost driven. In relation to Fromelles, the AGS was an inefficient organisation. This was confirmed in an almost unbelievably critical Australian government report on the AGS. No doubt the AGS was not the sole organisation working in the Fromelles area but given their track record, the failure to recover remains there is perhaps not too surprising. I don't think there is any doubt that officialdom finds the prospect of more large concentrations of remains being found anywhere on the Western Front as very unattractive - with the costs of subsequent ID investigations, burials etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Does anyone have a figure for the cost of the Fromelles project? BTW Just google " shocking examples of Ministry of Defence waste " ....Head shaking stuff. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Have just google and found this PDF Download Haven't read it yet, but looks to be 5,000,000 shared between two Governments? Mike EDIT MMM? LIONS LED BY DONKEYS? Think I might need a more reliable source? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Just shot off a letter to my MP with a link to the forum topic on the Beaucamps-Ligny shambles by the MOD........ All it takes is a letter from 1 constituent to his MP asking for answers to what is happening regarding the recovery and identification of bodies, to bring this situation to their attention. Now I'm off to read Mikes PDF posting above..... regards Tom I'm back...the link appears not to work Mike.... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Tom it's very slow. Not sure who Margaret Cox PhD is? There are some nice photographs, but it definitely does say in big writing " Lions Led By Donkeys " Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2013 I have always thought that the complete shutdown of the battle clearances was precipitate and purely cost driven. In relation to Fromelles, the AGS was an inefficient organisation. This was confirmed in an almost unbelievably critical Australian government report on the AGS. No doubt the AGS was not the sole organisation working in the Fromelles area but given their track record, the failure to recover remains there is perhaps not too surprising. I don't think there is any doubt that officialdom finds the prospect of more large concentrations of remains being found anywhere on the Western Front as very unattractive - with the costs of subsequent ID investigations, burials etc. Officialdom must be made to stand by it's responsibilities, the amount of waste by the MOD alone, as pointed out by Mike above, would make money available if this extreme example of bad management was abolished. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCurragh Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 I've editted a comment above - it contained something that could have potentially got the GWF into legal issues Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Not sure who Margaret Cox PhD is? Name rings a bell. Is she the forensics woman who used to crop up on Time Team now & again? If that's her, then she's a bit of an expert on mass burials. Did quite a bit of work in Bosnia some years back (part of a team that included the daughter of an ex-collegue of mine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Is she the forensics woman who used to crop up on Time Team now & again? Could be John? If that's her, then she's a bit of an expert on mass burials. Maybe not such an expert on WW1 if she's still spouting LLBD? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2013 http://www.csar.org.uk/synopses/2012-13/Margaret%20Cox%20(26%20Nov%202012).pdf Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 My link doesn't work now, try again Click Mike Edit It's the first one on this page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 This is what she says Lions Led by Donkeys" While this view has been largely changed for the latter part of WWI, for Fromelles it is apt. Despite clear signs that the battle would be a massacre Field Marshall Sir Douglas Haig sanctioned Lieutenant Sir Richard Haking’s plan and it went ahead. The Germans had been bunkered in on the higher ground of Aubers Ridge for months and could see everything the Allied Forces did in preparation. Our troops were mowed down (in part by friendly fire) and nothing was gained. Approximately 8,000 men were killed and 1,400 are still unaccounted for. A battle near this spot a year before had the same outcome. " Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Ok got it this time Mike, good PDF .... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glosterman Posted 26 November , 2013 Share Posted 26 November , 2013 Watching the re-run of the Fromelles exhumations and reburials on television this evening I turned to my trench maps again.... I had spotted the eight pits that had been dug at Pheasant wood marked on one of them (map excerpt below) when the topic first arose, and a year before the test dig began. So this evening this set me to wondering what happened to all the other bodies still missing in the area, so it was back to my maps, and there are other similar earth works marked on the same map in the vicinity of the light railway used to transport the bodies to the burial pits. I was wondering if anyone knew of plans by the authorities to have a look at these other sites in the future... regards Tom Pheasant Wood............... Pheasant wood.JPG Look's like from the UK Govt perspective the answer is no!. Came across the following answer to a Parliamentary Question on WW1 recoveries in Hansard today World War I : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans his Department has to provide financial assistance in order to locate and identify the bodies of missing soldiers from the First World War in France. [176110] Anna Soubry: The UK Government discourages the disturbance of battlefields where human remains may be present and do not authorise speculative searches of such sites. However, when bodies of missing service personnel from the First World War are discovered, the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (JCCC) will try to identify the body and contact the next of kin. The JCCC will then organise at public expense an appropriate burial in the nearest Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery in the country in which the remains are found. If they are unable to identify the remains, they will be buried as “Known unto God”. 25 Nov 2013 : Column 40W KH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 27 November , 2013 Share Posted 27 November , 2013 How will 'missing bodies' be found if the UK Gov discourages disturbance of the battlefields? Other than targetting areas which show some evidence of burials, earthworks or reports in war diaries then only partial remains will be found due to disturbance. Unless Id is on the bodies they will remain 'unknowns'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glosterman Posted 27 November , 2013 Share Posted 27 November , 2013 How will 'missing bodies' be found if the UK Gov discourages disturbance of the battlefields? Other than targetting areas which show some evidence of burials, earthworks or reports in war diaries then only partial remains will be found due to disturbance. Unless Id is on the bodies they will remain 'unknowns'. I read Ministers answer as saying the MoD will not resource or support any searches or excavations itself and will discourage action by authorities overseas, but, where remains are found by activities such as building work or farming if remains can be identified as British they will arrange a burial. KH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 27 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2013 "The UK Government discourages the disturbance of battlefields where human remains may be present and do not authorise speculative searches of such sites" Hmm..! maybe they should have a word with the local authorities in Belgium and France who approve major developments on battlefields, just to see who oversees and takes responsibility for any remains uncovered...... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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