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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Composition of an RGA Heavy Battery


Stephen Nulty

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As per the title, could anybody illustrate the structure of a Heavy Battery. All I have been able to glean so far is that they would typically be using 60 pounders.

I am keen to understand how many guns comprised a battery, how many men per gun, officer structure per battery, etc.

Cheers

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I found this on the forum;

Here is the breakdown as at Aug 1914 (though the battery was not formed until early 1915, and only went to France in April 1916)
August 1914 Heavy Artillery Battery and Ammunition Column (4 x 60-pounder guns)
Battery: Major, Captain, 3 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 6 Serjeants, Farrier-Serjeant, 2 Shoeing-smiths, 2 Saddlers, 1 Wheeler, 1 Smith, 2 Trumpeters, 7 Corporals, 6 Bombardiers, 74 Gunners, 51 Drivers, 6 Batmen, 2 Privates RAMC.
Ammunition Column: Subaltern, 1 Serjeant, 1 Shoeing-smith, 1 Saddler, 1 Wheeler, 1 Smith, 1 Corporal, 1 Bombardier, 8 Gunners, 13 Drivers, 1 Batman.

After the increase to six guns:
August 1916 Heavy Artillery Battery and Ammunition Column (6 x 60-pounder guns)
Battery: Major, Captain, 4 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 8 Serjeants, Farrier-Serjeant, 3 Shoeing-smiths (incl one cpl), 2 Saddlers, 1 Wheeler, 1 Staff-Sjt Fitter, 1 Smith, 7 Corporals, 8 Bombardiers, 110 Gunners, 71 Drivers, 7 Batmen.
Attached: Serjeant AVC, 3 Drivers ASC.
Ammunition Column: Subaltern, 1 Serjeant, 2 Shoeing-smiths, 1 Saddler, 1 Wheeler, 1 Fitter, 1 Corporal, 2 Bombardiers, 12 Gunners, 35 Gunners as Drivers, 1 Batman. Attached: 1 Driver ASC.

Note that these are nominal figures: the actual strength would have varied, depending on casualties and reinforcements.

Ron

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Cheers for that.

What a HUGE number for a six gun battery - I count that as 228 men without the attachment and ammunition column !!

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Thanks IPT: saved me another cut and paste job!

Stephen - well, they were pretty big guns, and with both guns and wagons horse-drawn, they needed a lot of drivers.

The guns were normally the 60-pounders. Batteries from the TF and those brought back from India, or newly formed at Woolwich in 1914, had the 4.7-inch originally, but were switched to 60-pounders as soon as enough guns became available.

Ron

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Thanks for the original post, Ron. And pardon me for not thanking you in thre first place !!

:)

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I think battery strengths are wrong, they are correct for 1914 and probably for 1916 and the change to 6 guns. However, when you analyse the numbers it gives 18 Gnrs per gun, this leaves nothing for signallers, a growth industry in WW1. One reason for the large detachments was ammo handling even though 60 lbs per shell is not exactly heavy. There seem to have been at least two 4 horse wagons per gun (excl the ammo column).

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Hello Nigel

The figures are from War Establishments, and are therefore the authorised strengths (and incidentally the 1918 figures were the same as in 1916). A note in the 1914 table says that the totals include two gunners for the telephone detachment, and that two bombardiers and three gunners were trained signallers or telephonists. A gun detachment was nine men of whom one would be a sergeant and probably at least one a bombardier, leaving only seven men of the rank of Gunner for each gun.

You are right that the need for signallers increased during the war, but this was done by creating Signal Subsections of one officer and 22 (later 28) men for each HAG or Brigade RGA. These were men of the RE Signal Service, not RGA, and were not included in the battery establishments.

Ron

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I am the chief copy and paster.

The total establishment varied, depending on the type of artillery. Siege Batteries with four 6-inch had a total of 184 men, four 8-inch a total of 236, for example.

The composition of a 9.2-inch Siege battery of four howitzers (War Establishment 351/28) was;
6 Officers
1 Warrant officer
6 Staff Sergeants/Sergeants
3 Artificers (2 smiths, 1 wheeler)
2 Trumpeters
Rank & File 140
Total 158
1 motor car, 5 motor cycles

Attached -
1 Armament Artificer AOC

ASC MT
2 Officers
3 Sergeants
66 Drivers for lorries
12 drivers for caterpillars
12 drivers for motor car
12 spare (15 per cent)
2 Batmen
2 motor cycles

Total (inc attached) 8 officers, 1 WO, 9 SNCOs, 4 Artificers, 2 Trumpeters, 233 Rank & File,
Total 257

Chris Henschke

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In the days before MHE manpower was the only way of handling ammo, hence the 18 gunners per gun. RGA bty accts and such things as the RGA Subaltern's Catechism indicate a reasonable number of RGA signallers to handle and maintain comms between the bty OP and the BC on the gun position. The RE element would have concentrated on comms between btys and bde HQ. Of course once RGA tended to a single OP for the bde the forward link problem for the btys eased.

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Can I ask about more detailed organisiation within the battery?

In the personal war diary that I'm researching the following references are made (specifically to 125 HB RGA)

C gun, D gun, E gun. - (the ref to E gun was after the battery increased to six guns on 18 Nov 16 with two guns from 174 HB)

D Pit.

D sub.

Left Section - (as in "left section gone forward into action at 4am")

Also trying to identify the location noted as "ammo blown up at G. Corner." The battery was at Ginchy at the time, Can anyone locate G. Corner?

There is also a ref to "1 G.B.D" - this is in relation to leaving Le Harve for Rouen having just arrived in France. He actually refers to Harve, dropping the 'Le' which I've seen several times in other comtemporary references. But what does GBD mean? I assume it's some sort of transit camp.

Alan.

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I'm also researching RGA War Diaries and I will be posting soon seeking answers about many abbreviations !!

Would hazard a guess that GBD is Gun Battery?? Depot.

D Sub - I have seen references to a Battery or two being divided up into Sub Sections - separated by some distance. Likewise I have also left and right sections and assume it to be two or more guns arranged to the left or right of centre (when facing the enemy).

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No.1 GBD was the RGA General Base Depot at Le Havre. C gun etc was identifying a single gun. A section was two guns. 2 sections for a 4 gun battery and obviously 3 sections for 6 guns. Left, centre and right or sometimes written LX etc. Pit was where the gun was situated. You can listen to a man who served with 125 HB at http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80023047 .

Kevin

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Arty btys were divided into sections of two guns (a single gun and its detachment is properly a 'sub-section', - ignoring super-heavy stuff). A 4 gun bty had 2 sects, 6 guns 3 sects, each section had a subaltern section commander. As far as I can make out (unlke more recent practice for those with modernish experience) the sections deployed in order, greatly helped by straightline deployments being usual (but not always, particularly if the position was in a farm or similar). Thus you would generally find A sub on the right (looking towards the enemy) and D or F on the left.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a reference in a personal diary "6 lumber gunners came back from rest to take over 23 HB"

Can anyone tell me exactly what a 'Lumber' Gunner was as I've not seen this role before.

Alan.

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Alan,



Was my post 13 of any interest? Just wondered as you may wish to ask further questions and I have also noticed you have referred to the IWM recording on another thread.



Kevin


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Thanks Kevin,

Yes it was very interesting personal account and takes several listens, at 2 hours of tape there is lots to learn. Dates and timescales aren't always clear, nor whether he's talking about 125 HB or 22 HB but to actually to hear someone who served and 'probably' knew (of) my GGF bearing in mind that there were about 200 of them, is amazing! If I recall back to my school days, there were about 200 in my year and I probably knew the names of most of them.

The one key item learnt was the location of the battery at the start of The Somme. My Great Grandfather notes that 125 HB "moved up to Mametz Bottom Wood" on 14 Jul 16.( I believe this refers to the small rectangular Bottom Wood rather than the larger Mamatz Wood). The diray indicates two locations prior to Bottom Wood but does not name them, I believe these to be Becordal-Becourt on 1 & 2 July were the diary records "Terrific Bombardment" for both days, then on 4 July "Moved up to new position. Thunderstorm made a mess of things." which is probably Fricourt.

Interestingly, whilst were are all aware that The Somme started on 1 July, the entry in the diary for 25 June records "Commencement of Grt Push" so they must have known what was going to happen at least a week before.

Alan.

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If it is limber rather than lumber then he may be referring to the actual gunners in a gun detachment, rather than those gunners who have other jobs. Because the battery was locally raised a number of the men may have already known each other, whereas your relative, being a special reservist, would have had to make new friends on arrival to the battery.

Kevin

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Kevin,

Yes, could be limber...it's a mis-reading of the handwriting.

What exactly is special reserve? Is this the unit allocated to between enlisting and being posted?

From what I know, 125 HB seemed to contain people from Liverpool area and at least one who lived on the Shankhill Road, Belfast, having enlisted in 1915.

My GGF would have been conscripted as he enlisted on 4/4/16 in Leeds (a Southampton man living in Leeds for at least the previous 4 years). Although 125 HB left England on 28/4/16 he didn't arrive in France until 19/05/16...presumably training during this period having passed though Yarmouth, Woolwich and Fort Elson, Gosport.

The 2 comrades he was killed with in 1917 came from Faversham, Kent and Reading so presumably the conscripts came from all over.

Alan.

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Alan,

The Special Reserve was, from the beginning of the war, for men with previous military experience but who had time expired their first enlistment period. Nearly always 12 years, which depending on when they first enlisted would have been broken down to 3 yrs serving and 9 in reserve or 4 & 8 yrs etc. this however changed later on but in your relatives case would indicate he had previously served, and as he went out to join 125 HB relatively quickly he most likely had been a gunner. Gt. Yarmouth was No.4 Depot and where he was first sent after attesting in Leeds. These Special Reserve men signed on for 1yr or duration of war if necessary.

The battery was named 125th County Palatine Heavy Battery with, as you say, men joining from Liverpool to Manchester. These gunners were specifically enlisted for this battery and were numbered from 1 upwards but when the TF and similar batteries were renumbered at the start of 1917 they were given numbers from 292000 to about 292300. Later enlistments who thought they were joining 125 HB did in fact get transferred to form another County Palatine battery; 133 HB. Even in the first enlistments there were of course reasons why a man could not make it to France with 125 HB, principally health related. Even before leaving for France there would have been other men joining to make up the numbers, NCOs and specialists such as signallers etc. Gnr. Brennan (IWM recording) would later learn these crafts "in the field". The total number who may have served with 125 HB during the war could well run into 300 plus men.

Do you have any photos of him or the battery?

Kevin

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Kevin,

I think you may have struck on something very significant here...which may require your further help!

My Grandfather (who was 5 years old) when his father was killed in 1917 always said that his father was in the Territorial Army. No-one believed him as his enlistment date of 4/4/16 seemed to indicate that he was conscripted just like many 1000's of others and we have found no evidence that he was in the TA of more correctly TF. His service records do not exist and all we have is his personal diary covering 04/04/16 to 06/04/17 and the original letter to his wife from the OC (acting Major JT Noble) explaning how he and 2 others were killed, & 1 wounded on 12/04/17 and when and where they were burried.

You seem to believe that he had served before which gives an awful lot of weight to my Grandfather's claim.

Can I ask what your source is and what else you have.

We also need to esatblish that we are taking about the same person here...8101 Gunner Sydney Thomas Bungey 125 HB RGA.

DOB is 4/4/1886 which I have just realised that he enlisted on his 30th birthday! This would have given him just about enough time to serve 5 years with the colours and 7 in reserve if he joined at 18.

Does his service number tell you anything significant about the date? Could it be related to his previous service?

I do have a portrait photo of him in RGA uniform...now come to think of it, it does look old and I'm wondering if it could have been taken before 1916...that really would be a turn up! The photo is sepia in colour, oval shape and faded out round the edge.

6 weeks training for an artilleryman does seem quite short as you say. Another family member joined the infantry in Feb. 1916 but didn't get to the trenches until Sept. 1916.

Anything you can add would be most apreciated.

Regards

Alan.

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Alan,

The Special Reserve was principally for ex regular soldiers and his number 8101/283101 indicates that he enlisted into the S/R. In fact on his medal index card it shows S/R 8101 against gunner. As I said things did change during the war and perhaps they did start to accept time expired TF gunners as well. There service obligations were different and they had to sign on for just 4 yrs with the possibility of additional 1 yr extensions. There was no reserve. It is a little strange, if he was a regular, now that you have given his DOB. If he enlisted in 1904, at 18, then he would have been on a 3 & 9 yr year term which doesn't fit, as he should have been recalled in 1914 and although time expired in 1916 he would have had to continue serving anyway. So perhaps the TF is a likely candidate for pre war service. If you have a photo that is pre war and you can see his shoulder titles then if he was TF there should be a "T" over "RGA" over the TF assoc. name, possibly "Hants".

What are you going to do with the diary when you have transcribed it? At some stage you should obtain the war diaries for the Heavy Artillery Groups/Brigades that the battery was attached for this period if available.

Kevin

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Kevin,

I can see from the MIC the SR prefix and one of the tips on the LLT confirms that this is a clear identification. The LLT suggests that the SR is "part time soldiering" and suggests you didn't need to be a regular to join the SR. Quote "A man who had not served as a regular could extend his SR service by upto 4 years..."

Speaking to my Mother this evening, she tells me that my Grandfather claimed his father joined up on the first day of the war...may not be totally acurate but I just need to fit these pieces of the puzzle together. There seems more to it than we thought!

I'm not sure where to go next to explore this avenue.

The photo I have is attached and as you can see the shoulder just shows RGA. Is there any clue to a date in the uniform style?

I want to get the diary typed up and add some context as although the entries are brief there are some real clues to be explored. I've mapped the locations and researched the casulties listed.

Alan.

Edit, 23/11/13 Image resized.

post-102890-0-01451000-1385199842_thumb.

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Allan,

The Special Reserve referred to on the LLT was not used by the RGA pre war, except in Ireland. The RGA S/R only started in England at the start of the war. Therefore pre war, for the RGA as least (except Ireland), there was only the TF and regular forces. From a return of No. 3 Depot for 1914/1915 (all the depots have similar returns to a greater or lesser detail); "Means by which recruited"______"recruited also by re-enlistment of Ex-Regular soldiers in the Special Reserve for a period of 1 year, or if the war lasts longer for the duration of the war." This was how it was at the start of the war and did possibly change a little later on. Your relative may have possibly attested as early as Nov. 1915, but was not mobilised until April 1916.

Given the age of your relative in the photo I would suggest it was taken in 1916 before he went overseas. I suppose there is no name of the photographer or place printed on it.

You can verify the terms of the S/R gunners by looking at the records of other gunners who enlisted close to his number on Ancestry. In fact if you subscribe to Ancestry I can give you a list of men whose records survive who served with the battery if you ever get interested in finding out who your relative served with.

Kevin

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Each gun had its own Limber Gunner who was responsible for the routine care and maintenance of the gun. So six Limber Gunners arriving at one time seems a bit strange.

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