From missing to presumed dead

[paul leeson]

Hi

Could any one tell me the time interval [the process or system followed] from informing a soldiers family he was 'missing' to the time he was officially declared dead. Not a pleasant subject I know, but it happened to my family and many, many others.

Thank you in advance.

Paul

[Guest]

Hi Paul. Not sure of the process, but in the case of a man I'm researching, his family were informed about 10/12/1915

" who has been missing since 20th September 1914, The Army Council are regretfully constrained to conclude that he is dead, and that his death took place on the 20th September. "

Mike

[Andrew Hesketh]

I'm not sure there is a precise answer to this. I have examples that vary a lot, but around a year is typical.

[paul leeson]

Thanks Mike for such a quick reply. Gosh - well over a year. Do you know if that is the first they had heard ? Or had they been informed that he was missing - say with in a few weeks of the event ?

Paul

[paul leeson]

Thank you Andrew. A year would seem to have some logic, but again do you have examples of family being informed he was 'missing' earlier.

Thanks - Paul

[Guest]

Thanks Mike for such a quick reply. Gosh - well over a year. Do you know if that is the first they had heard ? Or had they been informed that he was missing - say with in a few weeks of the event ?

Paul

Paul, they first received intimation that he was missing on 21/10/1914. I suppose they were living in hope he had been captured for over a year? I guess each case was different

Posted missing 20/9/1914, family informed 21/10/1914, and final confirmation from War Office 10/12/1915

Mike

Mike

[John_Hartley]

My research into the men from Stockport who were killed suggests that it was about a year until official confirmation that they were "presumed to have died". The main exception I've come across is at Gallipoli, where the official presumption came very shortly after the evacuation.

[T8HANTS]

Back of my mind it is a year and one day, how long it took the wheels to grind after this would be a different matter

[Andrew Hesketh]

do you have examples of family being informed he was 'missing' earlier.

Paul - quite a lot. Just some examples with notes from my database to illustrate the somewhat random nature of it all:

• Harry Fitton, Pte. 61227, 19th RWF: Initially reported as missing in action in November 1917, his parents were informed in September 1918 that he was ‘believed killed’. For some time afterwards his mother hoped that the report was false.
• Tom Furnish, Pte. 2701, 1/5th RWF: "Mr. Lewis Vaughan, Peel Street and Mr Thomas Furnish, New York Terrace, are still without news about their own sons – Privates John Vaughan and Tom Furnish – who are reported as missing since the beginning of August in the Dardanelles. Letters and parcels which these anxious parents have from time to time sent to their loved ones are being sent back stamped ‘missing’." He was officialy presumed to be dead in January 1916, after the evacuation as John intimated above.
• George Hughes, Pte. 15439, 4th Worcestershire: His last letter home was in July 1915 and he was last seen on 6 August. His death was not immediately known and in early September his Mother was informed that George was missing in action. Presumption of death was well over a year later.
• Isaac Jones, Pte.11126, 1st RWF: . In early January 1915 the family were informed that he had been severely wounded on the one hand, and missing on the other hand. Officially he was posted as missing and this was still the case in July 1915. It was much later that assumption of his death on 30 October 1914 was received.
• 2 Lt. Thomas Owen Roberts, 14th RWF: Initially he was posted as ‘missing, believed killed’ on 18 September 1918 and his parents were informed of this on 24 September. Upon the discovery of his remains some time later this was amended to ‘killed in action’.

I could post a dozen more, but hopefully this gives you an idea. By far my worst example involves a young man declared missing in Gallipoli, presumed dead after the evacuation, being reported alive as a Turkish Pow about a year later, corrected to still missing a short time after, corrected to being a Turkish PoW again. After the war it was discovered he had died whilst a PoW, but the family were expecting him home when they were told this.

[paul leeson]

Thank you Andrew and all.

Obviously every case would be different but I can see a bit of a trend to help me put a time line together.

Andrew, thank you for the well researched examples, all very sad in there own way, it does make you realize how the families left at home suffered too.

Paul

[clive_hughes]

From general experience of reading service records, I'd agree with about a year (give or take) after "missing" as the time when the authorities decided men really should be counted as deceased.

Another take on this is the date a soldier's death is officially assumed to have taken place, which may be quite another thing. In one case I know the man's unit was involved in a tangled night action near the Hohenzollern Redoubt on 2-4 March 1916. His rather scrappy surviving papers show in two places that he was first reported Wounded, then "Wounded and Missing" under the date 3 March. He likewise appears in the official casualty lists published during April and May as first Wounded, then Wounded and Missing. It was 9 June 1917 before the War Office decided that he really must be dead - and phrased it as "Presumed dead on or since 29 March 1916", which is that used by his MIC, SDGW and CWGC (Loos Memorial)! At that date his unit was well out of the line.

Myself, I think a second "Missing" report dated 29 March was taken as definitive by some clerk, despite the original date being visible close by. The waters were muddied by a chaplain who reported on 16 April that he had dealt with his body, found by another unit; but in retrospect wasn't so sure - he was relying on the memories of the soldiers who informed him of the body's ID, it was a very busy time for all, and so on. So that body was presumably buried as an "Unknown".

Like Andrew, I could go on with similar stories of date and ID confusion, but that one'll do!

Clive

[Andrew Hesketh]

...it does make you realize how the families left at home suffered too.

Indeed it does.

According to family lore, one of my Great Grandmothers went to Nottingham train station almost daily in the spring of 1919 as returning troops climbed off trains. She was there to see if she could see her son (see signature below). Listed as missing since 1 July 1916 at Gommecourt, he had been presumed dead a year or so later after being kitted out with a new six-digit territorial number to replace his four digit one in the Spring of 1917. But no body was found and she kept on believing and hoping for some sort of miracle. He was found by a French farmer in 1920. Miraculously, and how I don't know, his body was identified. So, in that case, it took four years before, from the family's point of view, the sorry saga was settled.

[NeilEvans]

These post war newspaper articles get me thinking.

The article below is from 10/05/1919.

[clive_hughes]

Neil,

The man I referred to above is one of "yours", born Shavington nr Market Drayton and commemorated at Adderley Church. PM/email me if you want more on him!

Clive

[johnboy]

When trawling the web I have occasionally come across reports where an officer or a pal of the soldier have written to his parents offering condolences well before they were officially notified of his death.

[BereniceUK]

[IRC Kevin]

The 12-14 month delay must have made it even worse for the Higginson family, as his brother Robert was killed on the 3rd August 16, and as Robert is recorded under his 4-figure number I'm presuming that his death was officially recorded at the time. (Those missing around this time were renumbered to a 6-figure before official notification of death)

[Old Owl]

From my researches it seems that providing no reports were received to the contrary, that a man who was reported as 'missing' or 'wounded and missing' would be deemed to have been 'killed or died as a direct result of enemy action' at a point circa 6 to 12 months following the date on which he was first reported missing.

In the case of my maternal grandmother's sister's husband, he was reported as 'missing' on 24th March,1918, whilst serving with 'D' Coy. Hood Bn R.N.D. His wife was informed on 16/11/18, that he was now 'assumed to have been killed in action' on 24/3/18--circa 8 months after he was reported missing.

His widow continued to believe that he would return one day--but of course he never did.

He is commemorated by name on the Arras Memorial, France.

[Moriaty]

There is a story in Gerald Gliddon's book The Aristocracy of the Great War about Michael, the brother of Fergus Bowes-Lyon.

Michael was a Captain in the 2nd Royal Scots, wounded (for a second time) in late April 1917 in the fighting at Monchy le Preux. He was reported missing and taken prisoner and the family was informed. A bank statement for Michael arrived at the family's London home which was, initially, not opened. When it was opened it was found that he had cashed a cheque on 4 May 1917 (he had been taken prisoner on 28 April) and then a postcard dated 4 May arrived from Karlsruhe, Germany. Michael said he had already written a letter, which had never arrived, and on the postcard he mentioned cashing a cheque. According to Gliddon "He had made various requests as he had nothing whatever in the way of belongings, apart from a cheque book. He was also bearded and filthy!" It was 7 months before the authorities were able to officially inform the family that Michael was safe.

Moriaty

[paul leeson]

Moriaty

Thanks - that's amazing to think of the banks all still operating as normal !!

Paul