Lovat Scouts casualties question

[Skipman]

This is not very scientific, but; using the " Lovat Scouts " keyword search term, on Ancestry SDGW, I found 88, of which, over a third " Died at home " (33) with a further 5 " Died other places " and 4 " Died at sea "

Selecting " Lovat Scouts " on Geoff's Engine, between dates 04/08/1914-11/11/1918, I found 101, of which 39 are buried in the UK.

Is this not an unusually high number of " Died at home " and what might account for this; very realistic training?

(The deaths at home seem fairly evenly spaced out over the years, though mainly 1915, 1916, and 1917)

Mike

Note: My numbers may be 1 or 2 out, but pretty close.

[Rob Bulloch]

Mike is that counting the lads in the Lovat Scouts Battalion 10th Bn Camerons or would these figure be prior to amalgamation.

Aye Rob.

[michaeldr]

Is that Lovat's Scouts Yeomanry or Lovat's Scouts Sharpshooters?

If the latter, then perhaps it has to do with the nature of their work:

from Lindley's biography of Lord Lovat - "In 1916 and 1917 nine groups of 'Sharpshooters' were trained in all and attached to Intelligence of as many Army Corps in France; and one of the nine groups went with the XIV Corps to Italy."

[Guest]

Rob This is a very rough list of date of those " Died " at home, unless stated- Ancestry SDGW

24 aug 1914

7 dec 1914

4 feb 1915

11 feb 1915

18 feb 1915

22 feb 1915

22 feb 1915

26 march 1915

1 apr 1915

8 july 1915

20 aug 1915

27 sept 1915

3 oct 1915

14 oct 1915

27 oct 1915 at sea

21 oct 1915 other areas

3 nov 1915

5 nov 1915 other areas

13 nov 1915 other areas

21 nov 1915 at sea

23 nov 1915

26 nov 1915 other areas

5 dec 1915 at sea

14 dec 1915

25 dec 1915 other areas

19 jan 1916

26 jan 1916

22 feb 1916

12 apr 1916

7th may 1916

19 aug 1916

31 aug 1916

10 sept 1916

18 sept 1916

16 nov 1916 at sea

29 oct 1916

23 feb 1917

7 april 1917

5 may 1917

17 aug 1917

25 jan 1918

Michael, again I'm not sure, but added " sharpshooter " term and nothing appeared?

I am checking British Newspaper Archive for Lovat Scout Accidents.

Mike

[Guest]

For what it's worth, here are some (truncated by me ) reports of Lovat Scout accidents. Again very rough, and the dates given, are the date of the report in the newspaper.

3/12/1914 Fatal accident Lovat Scout Body washed ashore at Redcastle Tuesday. Supposed while making way home fell into river near harbour. Named MacLean native of Glasgow.

24/12/1914 Aberdeen Journal 1914 Death of Trooper McIntyre 2nd Lovat Scouts at the training camp in Lincolnshire

20/3/1915 Aberdeen Journal Trooper William Wallace Lovat Scouts accident thrown from horse in hospital in England

22/8/1915 Trooper Donald Gordon Accidentally drowned Norwich Report Aberdeen Journal 23/8/1915 buried Strathblane?

9/11/1915 Report Dundee Courier Accidentally killed 1st Lovat Scouts 468 Sgt M McLeod

9/11/1915 Report Dundee Courier Died 1st Lovat Scouts 2410 J Montgomery

9/11/1915 Report Dundee Courier Died 2nd Lovat Scouts 5209 D Ross

1/1/1916 Aberdeen Journal Died 1st Lovat Scouts Pte R Collins 2335?

9/4/1917 Aberdeen Evening Express Chinese Lovat Scout's Death.

" The sudden death of a young Chinese soldier in the Lovat Scouts took place at the Central School Hospital Aberdeen on Saturday evening. He was named Goh Teik Sim, and was 17 years old. "

I'm not saying there was ' psycho' in the Lovat Scouts, but they do seem rather accident prone?

Mike

Am struggling to find a service record for any of the " Died at Home " men in SDGW. Maybe there are none out of 88

Mike

[Guest]

Here's a link to the Ancestry SDGW Lovat Scouts Died at Home pages (2 of) Click 33 men

Link to the Ancestry SDGW Lovat Scouts Casualty pages (2 of) Click 88 men

Mike

[Guest]

Again, using Ancestry SDGW

2 men of the 10th Bn QOCH died at home

S/25480 James McEwan 10th Bn QOCH died at home formerly 3378 Lovat Scouts

225495 John McGregor 10th Bn QOCH died at home formerly 3001, Lovat Scouts

189 Cameron Highlanders, of all battalions, died at home out of a total of 5,884 killed

Mike

[rolt968]

9/4/1917 Aberdeen Evening Express Chinese Lovat Scout's Death.

" The sudden death of a young Chinese soldier in the Lovat Scouts took place at the Central School Hospital Aberdeen on Saturday evening. He was named Goh Teik Sim, and was 17 years old. "

Am struggling to find a service record for any of the " Died at Home " men in SDGW. Maybe there are none out of 88

Mike

I couldn't quite resist looking Goh Teik Sim up. Goh Sim Teik (the RCE seems to correct it to that form)(4176 Lovat Scouts 1st Yeomanry Cycle Corps - 17) died on 7 April 1917 of "Corrosive sublimate poisoning, self administered and followed by uraemia". The RCE does not specify if the self administration was deliberate or accidental.

Roger

[Guest]

Thanks for that Roger. Interesting?

Conspiracy theories 'r' us?

Mike

[Waddell]

Mike, It would be interesting to see how many of those who died at home were victims of malaria or dysentery which affected the Lovat''s (like many others) who served at Gallipoli and Salonika. Melville's book gives a total figure of 481 Lovat Scouts who gave their lives during the war. Scott

[Guest]

Thanks for bringing me back to reality Scott. That would indeed be interesting. I admit my research technique is far from ' solid ' but there does seem to be an unusual trend?

God rest them all, whatever befell them.

Mike

[Rob Bulloch]

Again, using Ancestry SDGW

2 men of the 10th Bn QOCH died at home

S/25480 James McEwan 10th Bn QOCH died at home formerly 3378 Lovat Scouts

225495 John McGregor 10th Bn QOCH died at home formerly 3001, Lovat Scouts

189 Cameron Highlanders, of all battalions, died at home out of a total of 5,884 killed

Mike

I did notice Mike these two lads were listed as Cameron Depot and are both buried at the Glasgow Western Necropolis. They are on the Honour Roll of the 10th Bn Camerons. The 10th Bn served in Macedonia and were subjected to all the exotic illnesses. I have very little on the 10th Bn but they served with the 2nd Bn in the 27th Div. Is there any way you can check the home deaths of the 2nd Bn and see if it is a trend.

Aye Rob.

[Guest]

Morning Rob.

Entering

Regiment " Cameron Highlanders "

Battalion " 2nd "

Theatre of War " Home "

11 men, 4 of whom died of wounds

Mike

[Rob Bulloch]

Morning Mike.

Not near as high a number as the Lovat Scouts. Aye Rob.

[Guest]

Not near as high a number as the Lovat Scouts. Aye Rob.

Indeed. Not sure where to take this though. I really can't see a service/pension record for any of the " Died at Home " men. Is that unusual? I kind of got a bit ' dog tired ' trying though, and maybe missed plenty? Anyone care to have a try finding a service/pension/mic for any of the 33 men in post #6?

If as Scott mentioned, they died from malaria etc (which is perfectly possible) then they should have an MIC, but didn't find a certain MIC either?

Mike

[rolt968]

I wonder if the group of deaths in February 1915 could be an epidemic of something? I've heard somewhere that after 51 Division moved to Bedfordshire a number of the soldiers from remoter areas went down with childhood diseases which they had not really encountered before.

Roger.

[Guest]

Possibly Roger. Measles was a problem for the Jocks at Bedford. I think particularly men from the Islands and Argyllshire, who were not subjected to it in childhood. Or so I read, somewhere, don't ask me where.

Ah, now I remember The Bedford Highlanders

" Although the division's time in Bedford was largely trouble free in terms of disciplinary matters, tragedy came in the form of disease. Scarlet Fever, diphtheria and measles ran through the ranks of men who had never been exposed to these diseases in the more remote areas of Scotland. The majority of men who contracted these illnesses survived, but some fatally succumbed, their bodies either being returned to Scotland for burial, or interred in the military section of Bedford's Foster Hill Road cemetery. At the time, the numbers of deaths became grossly exaggerated and it was rumoured that numbers of men were dying in large measure as a result of incompetence and lack of concern on the part the Authorities. "

Mike

[Guest]

Have not found a service record of one of the died at home yet, but found one for an Angus McDonald which mentions " malaria 3 times " also peptic ulcer, so disease may well account for a percentage of them. Click

Mike

[Guest]

I'm being sensible now, and using Scotlands People to find deaths in Service Returns, will post when find any .

Mike

[Guest]

Not sure if this helps?

Ancestry SDGW Pte 2623 William Mabens Lovat Scouts Type of Casualty " Home " Death Location Home 22/2/1915 born Kilmallie, Inverness-shire, Residence Lochearnhead.

Scotlands People 3 likely William Mabens

1 1914 MABEN WILLIAM 26 SERVICE RETURNS / 116/AF 0046

2 1917 MABEN WILLIAM ADAMSON 33 SERVICE RETURNS / 135/AF 0126

3 1915 MABEN WILLIAM C 22 SERVICE RETURNS / 116/AF 0039

5?12934 Pte Maben William 22 27/1/1915 France or Belgium killed in action

289098 Wm Adamson Maben 33 22/8/1917 France killed in action

8545 Cpl William Maben 26 31/10/1914 France or Belgium Died in Field.

Mike

[Guest]

You would have thought a man who's death location on SDGW was Home, would have a Scottish death certificate? Cannot find one, or a service return for a Donald Reat 1 April 1915 He is buried at Alvie Parish Churchyard, near Aviemore

Donald Reat Lovat Scouts

Mike

[Rob Bulloch]

There was something going on, the first three Lovat Scouts lads I looked up from the post # 6 are al buried in Huntingdonshire the next 7 are buried at home and they are all highlanders. Sutherland and Invernesshire. Aye Rob.

[Guest]

Thanks Rob. I will just have to chip away at Scotlands People and see if any other Service Returns are there, but it might be a long term project,

In post #10, Scott says " Melville's book gives a total figure of 481 Lovat Scouts who gave their lives during the war. " though SDGW only gives a number of 88. I suppose the other 393 will be under Cameron Highlander, or various other Regiments?

Of the 88 Lovat Scouts on SDGW, 54 " Died " with 33 Died " Home "

Any other comments from pals welcome. I agree with Rob it that " something was going on "

What do others think?

Mike

[spof]

You would have thought a man who's death location on SDGW was Home, would have a Scottish death certificate? Cannot find one, or a service return for a Donald Reat 1 April 1915 He is buried at Alvie Parish Churchyard, near Aviemore

Donald Reat Lovat Scouts

Mike

Mike

THey might have died in English/Welsh/Irish hospitals and the family paid for the body to come home in which case the deaths would be registered outside Scotland.

Glen

[Guest]

Mike

THey might have died in English/Welsh/Irish hospitals and the family paid for the body to come home in which case the deaths would be registered outside Scotland.

Glen

Thanks Glen, that is probably the case.

Mike