1/5 Seaforths leaving Bedford

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This picture shows the above battalion leaving Bedford for active service (they are in the High St outside the Cross Keys pub).

I am interested in the headgear they are wearing. I have never seen it before, except in a picture Jock Bruce has of the same battalion (also taken at Bedford).

Any ideas?

Many thanks

John.

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Close up

[Tim Godden]

Hi There,

Just a guess but I have ssen photos of Territorial units (i.e. former volunterr units) wearing the headgear they recieved during service in the Boer War. I believe in the Scotland the Brave book published during the early 1900s that there is a similar plate of Argylls wearing slouch hats and a similar one to the ones shown in your photo.

All the best,

Tim

[Ken Lees]

I have a photo of unusual headgear, too. I believe that this picture, of men of the 9th King's Liverpool Regt., was taken in late July 1914 at the annual camp, just prior to the outbreak of the war.

Ken

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Thanks for that Tim, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I checked through my Boer war pictures and found this.

At least one man has a similar hat.

Cheers.

John.

[Jock Bruce]

I'm not convinced these are a Boer War issue, on two counts

a. surely only those men who actually went to SA in the Vol Service Coy would have received them

b. even if they were general issue, I think it unlikely that 13 years later there would be enough stocks to equip all new recruits to 1/5 Seaforth with them.

Joe Sweeny and I had an exchange about these hats some time back - the trouble is I'm sitting here having one of those senior moments and can neither remeber the conclusion we reached or where I stored the results.

It will come to me.

Jock

[CROONAERT]

It looks like they're wearing the hat of the 1932-34 Experimental Pattern Serge Uniform, (referred to as the "deerstalker", it was a gabardine item intended to replace the SD cap. It had no chinstrap and carried no badge.When not in use it was intended to be rolled up and carried in the jacket pocket.)

However, the photo seems to be dated 1915, and the civies in the street around them seem to be dressed wrong for the 1930's! (A mystery? - or time travellers? )

Dave

Below, the 1932-34 Experimental Pattern uniform

[brownag]

I've never seen anything like this before but the shape of it reminds me of a 'soft' version of the Wolsley sun helmet. Was there ever such a thing?

The texture and shape (or lack of it) makes me think they are some sort of cover. Is it an experimental wet-weather glengarry cover??

As to date the Imperial Service badges if nothing else must make it c.1915

Bemused

Adam

[P.B.]

How about this photo....

It was originally published in a "War Illustrated" type magazine in 1915, and shows a private in the Black Watch wearing Service Dress with an apron covered kilt, 1914 pattern leather equipment and what Philip J Haythornthwaite describes as a "waterproof rain-hat". Haythornthwaite speculates that the dark coloured triangle on the front of the hat is perhaps a company or battalion identification patch (the photo being reproduced in Hythornthwaite's "A Photo History of World War One"):

[CROONAERT]

How about this photo....

It was originally published in a "War Illustrated" type magazine in 1915, and shows a private in the Black Watch wearing Service Dress with an apron covered kilt, 1914 pattern leather equipment and what Philip J Haythornthwaite describes as a "waterproof rain-hat". Haythornthwaite speculates that the dark coloured triangle on the front of the hat is perhaps a company or battalion identification patch (the photo being reproduced in Hythornthwaite's "A Photo History of World War One"):

I knew I'd seen that photo before.

The same photo is used in "A source book of World war One Weapons and Uniforms" by Frederick Wilkinson. In this, the hat is described as "...a special type being tested for general use." Maybe Wilkinson has it confused with the 1932/4 Patt. hat mentioned in my above posting?

Mind you, it does remind me of the tropical issue "Gobbin hat" (may be a foreign term to any non-Lancastrian Pals?) or British army Jungle hat of the mid 1940's onwards.

Dave.

[Jock Bruce]

I think the hat is a unit measure to provide something other than the Glengarry for field wear, before the issue of the Tam O'Shanter (TOS).

There are a number of pictures from Bedford showing the 5th (and only the 5th) in this headgear, one of which is captioned '5th Seaforth in Overseas Kit'. As John W will confirm, the Highlanders in Bedford were heavily photographed. I think if it was worn in other battalions it would have shown up.

I also have one of the battalion's officer at summer camp, probably in 1912 or 13 (no earlier). Everybody is in full regimentals, white shoulder belts and spats, etc and wearing the Glengarry, except for one young officer who is centre of the group and is wearing a hat like this. No sign of it in earlier photographs of the 5th.

And I have an undated photograph of a soldier wearing one - this man was dicharged on 29 Sep 14. Both these are wearing it 'Digger' style with the battalion cap badge on the folded up portion.

The date of Sep 14 is important. Glengarry covers weren't issued until April 15 - and there was a problem. The metal 'eagle's feathers' that officers of the 5th wore as part of their capbadge tore holes in them!

By Jul/Aug 15 the 1/5 were wearing the TOS in France.

So what I would say is I have no evidence pre-1912ish of this being worn, it isn't a Glengarry cover and it didn't last after the unit went on active service. And bar the photo of the guy supposedly from the Black Watch I've never seen it worn by anybody but the 5th.

I think you have to rember that the County Territorial Associations were responsible for equipping their units - there was no central procurement for the TF. Doubtless there many local variations.

I've flagged this up to Joe Sweeny who might be able to add something.

Jock Bruce

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Thanks all for the interesting debate.

As Jock states there were many pictures taken of the highland troops in Bedford.

Blake and Edgar a local company produced a set that ran to over 650 different pictures (this is number 422).

I have been collecting this set for some years as Bedford is my home town and now have over 300, this card is my latest (Ebay) purchase. This is the first picture (apart from Jock's) that I have seen this head gear being worn.

Cheers

[Guest Hill 60]

John - For my own curiosity, where in relation to the High Street is the Cross Keys? I can't figure out where the photo was taken from.

I have one picture of a Scots mob marching down the High Street and one of the Scottish Horse riding through Cople which I can scan for you if you wish (non have these hats though).

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Hi Lee.

The men are marching down the High St towards the river bridge. The picture is taken looking towards where Mill St joins the High St (on the right).

The Cross Keys is still there.

I would love to see your pictures please.

Cheers

John

[brownag]

it isn't a Glengarry cover

Jock

I'd disagree with your comment. Look at the officer on the right hand side of the close up photo. That looks just like a cover over a glengarry to me. Look at the shape at the front.

There are others in the picture where they aren't sitting right on the head if they are caps. I'm convinced they are covers.

Saying that I don't know what the officer has done with the feather(s) in his badge.

Cheers

Adam

[Jock Bruce]

Adam,

I see what you're saying - it does look like a Glengarry shape.

I'll post some pictures at the weekend to expand on my comments above.

Jock

[Jim Gordon]

To All

I have some queries regarding this very interesting picture :

1. How is the unit identified as being 1/5th Seaforth ? The written legend at the foot is not that clear on my VDU.

2. Are the troops armed with the Lee-Metford Rifle ? If so when did they receive the SMLE ?

3. Did all TF units proceed overseas in the 14/15 era with this weapon ?

4. I must admit I did not know about Glengarry covers! Are there any more photos showing them ? Apart from keeping the bonnet clean did they serve any other "official" purpose ?

5. Not all the men are wearing the Imperial Service Badge. I thought the practice was discontinued on being posted overseas or did it just peter out ?

Regards

Jim Gordon

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Jim I will answer your first question.

It is a matter of knowing what units were in Bedford and at what time.

I have been studying this subject for some years and I know that this can only be the 1/5th.

The 1/4th had already left and I know for a fact the 1/5th left for active service on the 1st of May.

Cheers.

John.

[Joe Sweeney]

I'd agrree with Jock on this one. It was a non standard piece of headgear procured by the TFA for the 5th.

The TFA had sole responsibility for kitting out units in their areas and finding non standard item's is quite common. If fact the War office did not take over first kit issues to the TF until 10 May 1915.

Whether it is some kind of cover I don't know. I doubt it to an extent as the Khaki Glenagarry Cover was not introduced into Army inventory until pattern 8224/1915, 6 March 1915, was approved. The hat in the photo is not that cover.

Joe Sweeney

[Jim Gordon]

John

1/1st. Highland Division was scheduled to leave Bedford over 1, 2 &3 May, 1915.

Making the reasonable assumption that the senior 152 Bde. left first then I agree that 5th Seaforths left on 1 May. But so, surely, would 6th. Seaforths as well as 6th and 8th Argylls.

From an outsider's point of view there is nothing, other than the written legend in the photo, to identify the Battalion as Seaforth. However, if the legend is accepted could it not be 6th. Seaforths ?

I know it is all a bit pedantic etc.

Regards

Jim Gordon

[Guest Hill 60]

I would love to see your pictures please.

Cheers

John - Thanks for the location tip. I will scan the pictures tomorrow (whisky permitting) and post them for you and any Pal who is interested.

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Thanks to all for the continued debate.

Lee I look forward to the pictures, have a wee dram for me!

Jim, I totally agree that if we are unwilling to believe contemporary captions, there is often no other means of proof.

It could be the 1/4th but in my own mind I am happy it is not.

Jock has a picture of a unit wearing this headgear, I believe taken at the same time. This is captioned 5th Seaforths and was taken by the same photographer.

Who knows, maybe the 1/4th were issued with this headgear as well, I can only state that I have never seen proof of it, but there is evidence suggesting the 1/5th were.

Cheers all.

[Jock Bruce]

If the technolgy works (or rather if I can work the technology) this should show the officers of the 5th Seaforth at camp pre-war (probably 1912 or 13) and shows

- the hat

- the 'eagle feathers' of the cap badge

- bottom left, JJC Davidson, CO 1/5 Seaforth in May 15.

Jock

[Jock Bruce]

And this should show Pte John Dunnet, enlisted 1911 and discharged as unfit for military service in Sep 14.

Jock

[Jock Bruce]

OK - so the hat was worn by the 5th pre-war.

There is another photograph from Bedford captioned '5th Seaforth in Overseas Kit' where they are wearing the hat and then a series of photos showing the battalion marching through Bedford in the hat - don't have it to hand, can't recall the caption, but the officers are reconisable as those of the 5th. I also have a photo of Lt Col Davidson inspecting a soldiers kit, the man is wearing the hat.

With the exception of the one Black Watch photograph reproduced above, everything example I've seen of the hat is 5th Seaforth.

Now, the reason I said originally it is not the Glengarry cover is because in Apr 15 Lt Col Davidson wrote to his wife explaining the recently issued Glengarry cover was being torn by the eagle feathers of the cap badge.

I suppose the question is - if this isn't the official issue Glengarry cover was it still a Glengarry cover? I have to say I don't know. I can see what Adam says about the shape of some of the hats an dhow they ride on the head, but it seems an odd arrangement. When I evntually sort out the photo archive I'll return to this.

And I'm all for pedantry !!

Jock