5/6th Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

[JohnDrouot]

Hello,

I am researching my wife’s great uncle, James Roy, who is recorded on the CWGC website as dying on the 24^th April 1917 at Arras, whilst serving in the 5/6^th Cameronians, the Scottish Rifles. According to http://www.1914-1918.net/scotrif.htm the 5/6th was formed from the 1/5^th and 1/6^th battalions on 29^th May 1916. I visited the National Archives web site and downloaded the diary for 19^th Brigade, which 5/6^th was part of.

Reading the diaries shows that after 29^th May 1916 both the 1/5^th and the 1/6^th continued to report as separate units: the 1/5^th remaining in the line and the 1/6 reduced to a nucleus which until December 1916 at least, spent its time reforming in Etaples. The 1/5^th dairy for 29^th May 1916 says that it received 66 men from the 1/6^th and continues until September 1918. The diary for the 1/6^th battalion continues on a daily basis until the end of July 1916. It then offers a one or two line description of its activities each month until December 1916. In January 1917 there was a rather testy correspondence between 33^rd Division and 19^th Brigade about exactly which battalion is being reported. At this point the 1/6^th diary ends. The diary for the 5/6^th battalion tyakes up the story but only from October 1918 (i.e. after the diary for the 1/5^th suddenly ends).

With me so far? My question is: I am I safe in assuming that regardless of what the Imperial War Graves people thought when they were compiling the register of the missing, my wife’s great uncle was part of a unit that thought of itself as the 1/5^th Cameronians when he died? That unit was certainly in action on 23^rd and 24^th April 1917 whereas I can find no record of what either the 1/6^th or the 5/6^th were doing on that day? Or should I be looking somewhere else?

I'll be grateful if anyome has any ideas and apologise if it is a well worn story, although I couldn't find anything on the Forum using the seaqrch facility.

Best wishes

John

[Rob Bulloch]

Hello John. You may or may not have this information. Your wifes relative is mentioned in The History of the 5th Scottish Rifles 1914-1919, on the Honour Roll of the 5/6th Bn.

202382. Pte James. Roy. Died of wounds France and Flanders 27/4/1917. Born. Edinburgh. Enlisted Edinburgh. Formerly. 4358 Royal Scots.

Rob.

[JohnDrouot]

Thank you Rob this has been incredibly helpful as I am somewhat new to this lark.

I have found the History of the 5^th Battalion on line and now have an account of the period when James died which sits alongside the battalion diary.

Can you, or anyone else tell me, how significant it might be that the Battalion History records his death as 27^th April, whilst the War Graves website records has the 24^th April? I presume the History would have been based on the battalion roll, what would the sources be for the CWGC?

Thanks again. My wife has 3 great uncles lost 1917-18, all missing at Arras, so I’m not finished yet, but hopefully learning more about how to find out things asking fewer questions.

Best wishes

John

[Colin W Taylor]

John

Regarding James Roy's date of death - both the CWGC and the battalion history (or the copy I've seen) say 24th April. If he was wounded in action and DoW then it would seem less likely that his grave or body were lost - such a pronouncement would presumably have occurred on entry to the casualty evacuation chain. It is more likely that he was missing after the battle - the 5th Scottish Rifles were involved in heavy fighting for barricades in the Hindenburg Line and they did launch a counterattack down the trench a short distance before withdrawing - James could have been lost at this point and been buried later (and his grave lost) or remained unburied. These burials probably formed Henin-Croisilles Road Cemetery - I've been doing some studying on this fighting myself.

There is also the possibility that he was killed earlier in the month on the 14th when 5th Scottish Rifles attacked across some open ground north of the Hindenburg Line. With the minor German withdrawal on the night of the 23rd-24th the ground on which they were killed would have become accessable to allow the burial of large numbers of British dead in this area - the troops doing so - not necessarily knowing who was killed when recorded his death as such.

The possible solution to this problem would be to ask the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for a copy of his burial records - I'm not sure how easy this is but information should be available on the forum.

Regarding the 1/5th or 5/6th nomenclature there is a reference in the regimental or battalion history that said that the battalion became 5/6th with the arrival of the draft of SNCOs from 1/6th in the summer of 1916 - though you are right to suggest that to all intentsand purposes they were the 1/5th as thats largely who they described themselves as.

I hope this is of assistance

Kind regards

Colin

[JohnDrouot]

Hello Colin, Thanks for the information and your thoughts. You are right, both the War Graves Commission and the History show James' death as 24th, I'm not sure where I got the 27th from. One of the things I am learning is about how many unknowns and uncertainties there are in tracing someone from the war. James "died of wounds", which implies that he was in a situation where someone could apply that description, rather than "killed in action". And then, at some point and for whatever reason, his body was lost. I can only speculate on what actually happened, where and when.

Best wishes

John