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Remembered Today:

Trench map High Wood August 1916


Jim Hastings

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Hi all,

I wonder if any forum member could help me please. I am looking into a local fallen man from 2nd Bn Royal Sussex who fell on 17th August 1916. The 2 RSR WD states that a 4 coy (2 x 2 RSR and 2 x 1 Northants, 2 Bde, 1 Div) attack was made on the, to quote:

"western portion of the trench running S.W. from High Wood" (2RSR WD entry 15th Aug)

and he was involved in that attack. There are no sketch maps in the WD appendix. Has anyone a trench map view postable on the forum that covers the area/approx date from which I could ascertain where this 'S.W.' trench actually ran on the ground, how far it was from the British lines etc. I would very much, if at all possible, find out where this man fell.

Appreciate any guidance and efforts on my behalf

Best regards and thanks

Jim

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Hello Jim,

Sorry, I haven't had enough time to look at the war diary stuff for you. (Am I allowed to mention the "C" word relevant at this time of year?)

The trench in question actually runs SW from the corner of High Wood where the sunken lane is in the top left hand corner of boysoldiers map.

The only sketch map of the positions I can bring to mind is on page 192 of Terry Norman's "The Hell they called High Wood".

I MAY get some time to have a proper look later in the weekend.

Steve.

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Thank you Phil. Boysoldier and Steve,

I looked on the map on page 192 Steve but it left me still a bit unsure as 2 RSR WD said LNL relieved them, yet combined with Boysoldier's map above makes more sense (trench map interpretation is still a skill I have to get my head around I'm afraid). I understand there is no access to High Wood but you can get around it, so I should be able to get to see this trenchline trace?

Please do not worry Steve, appreciate it whenever you get the chance. 30 members of 2RSR died in the German counter-attack on the 17th and I'm looking into them all. Be interesting to know what 1 Northants suffered alongside them.

Many thanks all, and a very Merry Christmas

Jim

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Be interesting to know what 1 Northants suffered alongside them.

According to the Northants history C Co was immediately to the left of the R Sussex. At about 3am on August 17th the enemy launched a strong counter-attack and ejected the Royal Sussex. The Northants, under Capt Clark, fought off the Germans and clung to their portion of the trench. Subsequently a barricade was built to separate the two. That part of the trench retained by C Co was renamed Clark's Trench. (In Rats Alley it is shown as Clarke Trench and is to be found on map 57cSW3 in squares S3c &d)

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Yes, just checked 2 RSR WD and entry for 17th states that after some confusion and officer casualties (RSR OC 2/Lt (A/Capt) Atkinson) " 2/Lt Wright was sole officer left and managed to maintain himself with a small party in captured trench" - next statement mentions relief by LNL... presume it was a combined Northants/RSR holding then?

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Could be, as you say, that the remnants of the RSR were forced up the trench into the arms of the Northants, fighting with them to prevent further enemy progress and, perhaps, helping construct the barricade

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This is what the Northamptons war diary states:

14-8-1916

HQ – Maxse’s Redoubt

The morning was spent in games and races and at 3 p.m. the battalion moved off by platoons en route for Bazentin-le-Petit where it relieved the 16th Battalion, The Royal Scots in support. This journey was rather uncomfortable due to the enemy shelling promiscuously all over the country and the battalion was really rather fortunate in having only four casualties. The whole battalion spent the night digging, endeavouring to generally improve a bad system of trenches. This entailed the loss of five more other ranks casualties, three men wounded.

15-8-1916

HQ – Support trenches on left of High Wood

The day was spent resting and at 5 p.m. the battalion moved up, “C” Company taking over the left of the front line from 2nd Royal Scots. There was a company of the latter Regiment on the right of “C” Company. “C” Company then pushed out two patrols one under Sec. Lt. N. L. Giddy, the other under Lt. C. Nye. These patrols returned and an attempt was made to take the German trenches by surprise without any preparation. This attempt failed and as a consequence Sec. Lt. N. L. Giddy was killed, Sec. Lt. E. T. S. Syfret wounded and Sec. Lt. N. A. Chambers and Sec. Lt. C. Nye missing. Casualties, 1 killed, 2 wounded.

16-8-1916

HQ – Front line trenches on left of High Wood

At 9.25 a.m. Sec. Lt. C. Nye returned unscathed having spent the night in a shell hole. The information he brought back was invaluable and he was absolutely confident of success should the Regiment attack again. Not only was he able to render information which considerably facilitated future operations but eagerly volunteered his own services in leading the attack. Plans for the attack were arranged and orders issued, and at 10.05 p.m. “C” and “D” Companies attacked and captured the trench between S.3.c.6.8 and S.3.d.5.7. The same night the 2nd Royal Sussex evacuated the portion of trench taken by them owing to a counter attack, which was successfully stopped by Captain Clark and “C” Company who resisted all the enemy’s efforts to bomb down the portion of trench they held. In the attack we lost heavily in officers. Capt. A. E. Swell., D.S.O., Lt. E. L. Jacques and Lt. C. Nye were killed, Sec. Lt. G. V. Noakes, Sec. Lt. C. H. Fergusson and Sec. Lt. H. R. Phipps were wounded. Sec. Lt. N. A. Chambers was found wounded. Other casualties: 4 killed, 28 wounded, 10 missing, total 42.

17-8-1916

HQ – Front line trenches on left of High Wood

The days was spent consolidating the new line and the whole of it was taken over by “A” Company under Captain J. G. Clayton. Sec. Lt. Wilson was killed. Casualties 14 killed, 77 wounded, 21 missing, total 112.

18-8-1916

HQ – Recently captured front line

At 2.45 p.m. we brought up two stoke mortars and with hand grenades as well we bombed down the trench relinquished by the Sussex and retook it. Simultaneously the 1st Loyal North Lancashire Regiment made a frontal attack and succeeded in capturing a further portion of the trench to the east with only little difficulty. This operation was very much simplified by “A” Company making a bombing flank attack simultaneously. The news was brought up that both Sec. Lt. G. V. Noakes and Sec. Lt. E. T. S. Syfret had both died of their wounds. Other casualties: 11 killed, 32 wounded, 1 missing total 44.

I'm not sure that makes things any clearer.

Steve.

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I have located a sketch map showing Clark's Trench. I shall post it later, as I am out of time now....

EDIT:

Here is the trench map from the 2nd Brigade war diary for September 1916 (I don't have August 1916 - it figures...).

post-6536-0-29394500-1356445036_thumb.jp

Unfortunately there is no key as to what the coloured lines represent (i.e. whether originally British or German), nor does it note what point "A" is.

The trench line for Clark's Trench seems to be the same as the one in the Terry Norman book.

Steve.

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Thank you Steve,

Apologies for not replying earlier, been infested by those worst of household pests - the Inlaws. I think you are right, Clark's trench does correspond with Terry Norman's, thank you for posting. As mentioned above, plan to visit the grave of a local fallen RSR man buried at Caterpillar Valley and try to trace the place of his death on the ground. For comparison thought I'd post 2 RSR's WD entires for the corresponding dates to the Northants

2 RSR: 15th August 1916 HIGH WOOD - "our batteries remained very active throughout the day, the German guns replied with occasional shelling. About 9.30pm a Patrol was sent out to report upon the western portion of the trench running SW from HIGH WOOD. At midnight the Patrol reported the line not wired and attack feasible. About 2.30am [so really the 16th] 'B' Coy on the right, and one Company Northamptons on the left, moved out. There was no artillery preparation and the enterprise was unsuccessful principally owing to loss of direction. Lt Collins killed and 30 ORs casualties"

NORTHANTS : 15th [taken from Steve's above]" “C” Company then pushed out two patrols one under Sec. Lt. N. L. Giddy, the other under Lt. C. Nye. These patrols returned and an attempt was made to take the German trenches by surprise without any preparation. This attempt failed and as a consequence Sec. Lt. N. L. Giddy was killed, Sec. Lt. E. T. S. Syfret wounded and Sec. Lt. N. A. Chambers and Sec. Lt. C. Nye missing. Casualties, 1 killed, 2 wounded"

So looks like a concerted effort by both Bn commanders

Other dates to follow

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2RSR: 16th August 1916: "Some shelling during the day. It was further decided to again attack the German position but with 2 Coys. R.Sussex and 2 Coys. 1 Northants. This time, moving forward at 10pm under an intense bombardment, the trench was occupied with few casualties and some 12 prisoners unwounded, were taken by the two companies."

Northants: 16th August 1916: " ... Plans for the attack were arranged and orders issued, and at 10.05 p.m. “C” and “D” Companies attacked and captured the trench between S.3.c.6.8 and S.3.d.5.7. ..."

Corroborates one another ...

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2 RSR : 17th August 1916: " Towards morning [17th] the Germans made a determined counter-attack with a Flammenwerfer and hand grenades. Considerable confusion ensued; 2/Lt Atkinson [A/Capt, OC of RSR component?] was killed and 2/Lts Sainton and Johnson having been wounded earlier in the evening [16th then?], 2/Lt Wright was the sole officer left and managed to maintain himself with a small party in the captured trench. The enemy bombarded all day and about 8pm the Loyal North Lancs began to relieve the Battalion ..."

Northants: night of 16th (/17th) August: " ... The same night [16th?] the 2nd Royal Sussex evacuated the portion of trench taken by them owing to a counter attack, which was successfully stopped by Captain Clark and “C” Company who resisted all the enemy’s efforts to bomb down the portion of trench they held. In the attack we lost heavily in officers..."

This comparison has proved very interesting and worthwhile because it suggests so many alternatives, and I thank the members for their contributions. 2RSR claim to have held the trench, whereas Northants claim RSR evacuated it and they held the Germans. Maybe Clark was unaware of Wright's men further up the line - very doubtful considering the German force both extracts portray, Wright's force would have been overcome. Maybe Clark absorbed Wright's men. Maybe regimental pride worded 2 RSRs extract in such a way as to suggest their small group held the line, preferring not to mention the Northants. The confused state of events has been admitted, the fog of war and heat of the engagement no doubt impacted on the reportage of events. We will probably never know the truth, but this has been an informative exercise.

Between 14th -21st August 2 RSR lost 3 Officers killed and 14 wounded and 56 Other Ranks killed, 320 wounded and 87 Missing. I do not have figures for wounded or missing from the events of 17th August, but 30 of the 56 killed died that day. One of them was A/Cpl Frank Tucknott, a man who saw the same fields I see today as I look out of my window.

Thank you all

Jim

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I agree with you on your analysis of the dual extracts. There is always a tendency with war diaries to talk up yourself / downplay the neighbouring battalions efforts, and blame everything on the division next door.

The casualty figures in the Northamptons war diary when compared with the deaths shown on CWGC/SDGW are quite heavily understated, and even matching them to a specific day, especially for the night actions is a difficult process.

There may be a "consolidated" report in the Brigade War Diary. I had intended to get the Brigade War Diary copied to a large extent on my last visit, but since the diaries are still in the digitisation process I ended up locked in the "Invigilation Room" with it, and I had to sacrifice some of the work on it to get my other research done back in the main room. :(

Steve.

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Here is an extract from the Times Casualty List of 26-9-1916:

Under the heading "MISSING"

post-6536-0-10611500-1356625408_thumb.jp

Steve.

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Thank you Steve,

I have never had the need to set a Brigade's component Battalion's WDs next to one another for comparsion before (limited before to chasing better/progressive sketch/trench maps from their appendices) and it has been enlightening, and something I will need to repeat. I can see I am going to need to get the Northants and LNL WDs (I already have 2 KRRCs) to get a better picture of 2 RSR's war. Assigning the day of death has always concerned me, especially in over night operations, as you say. Tucknott may have been killed on the 16th for all we know. It would be natural for RSR survivors to withdraw back down the safest route - the Germans would have been attacking from the right, into 2 RSR and pushing down left into the Northants. I believe Wright made a fighting withdrawal back to the Northants and put himself under Clark, but this was not divulged in the WD. Makes me wonder if Wright was put in for an award after this action? Maybe that determined the wording? Was Lt Nye awarded just out of interest?

Shows you can take nothing at face value and have to dig deep

Cheers

Jim

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Ah! Thankyou for the link to the Times 'Missing' list, so many of those names match my list of the thirty!! Just goes to show, how can anyone really know exactly when they died???!!! It's more 'between such a date and such a date'

Thanks Steve, a great bit of evidence

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Looking at that list of names of the missing, so many of them (in fact nearly all) accredited to the 17th August action, an action restricted to a captured trench line, I am moving even more over to the idea that 2 RSR did lose their hold on the trench and the bodies were not recovered until the following month when High Wood and environs were taken. Many of them have known graves so their bodies were recovered. The Northants and small remnants of 2 RSR held the Germans back.

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Of the 27 other ranks of the Northamptons noted on CWGC/SDGW as being killed on the 16th, 15 are on Thiepval Memorial, so I don't suppose that the Sussex losses are really any different in "type" from the Northamptons who apparently didn't get dislodged.

Incidentally, the overall losses of the Northamptons (killed per SDGW and killed or missing per WD) over the days between 15th and 20th August 1916 do tie in at 111 each.

Charles Nye wasn't awarded any medal for his deeds (possibly because his death was on the same day), but Captain John Clark was awarded the Military Cross for the holding of "his" trench.

Awarded the Military Cross as a Lieutenant (temporary Captain), LG 23-10-1916 - "For conspicuous gallantry in action. He led a successful attack with great dash, and consolidated and extended the captured line with skill and determination."

http://www.london-ga...pplements/10178

I assume that this is Lt. Wright from the same issue of the Gazette:

2nd Lt. Basil Charles Wright, R. Suss. R. For conspicuous gallantry in action. After taking part in a successful assault he showed great coolness and courage in beating back a counter-attack. He has done other fine work.

http://www.london-ga...pplements/10194

(Incidentally, the Northamptonshire Regiment Bertie Wright just above him on that page was not 1st Battalion, but 7th)

Steve.

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Thanks Steve

Of the 12 2nd RSR who died on the 16th 11 are on Thiepval Memorial, the 12th was a DOW buried at Puchevillers

Of the 30 who died on the 17th 20 are on Thiepval Memorial

Of the Missing list above, both 16th and 17th Aug men are listed - 15 of that list of 24, 5 of those buried at Caterpillar Valley Cem

I am glad Clark and Wright were awarded, shame about Nye.

It is 'little' events/encounters such as this that must not be forgotten

Many thanks for everyones help

Jim

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John Clark "carried his bat" (in cricket parlance) being in from 1914 through to 1918 - in fact he was an OR in the Boer War as well, and started the Great War as a RQMS "in from Mons". Commissioned in December 1914, he was wounded at Aubers Ridge in May 1915 before returning to the 1st Battalion in October 1915. He was O.C. of "C" Company through most of 1916 until October when he became acting Second-in-Command. In April 1917 he was posted to the Labour Corps (probably for a rest) with whom he served out the war. He was obviously known in the battalion as "Nobby", though there was another Second Lieutenant Clarke known as "Little Nobby".

Steve.

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Wonder if he ever came across my Great Uncles (see signature, you helped me a few months ago with info on them Steve)? Wright's old house near Tenterden is now a B&B, may treat the missus and see if the owner knows about the brave man that grew up there. There is a stained glass to him in the local church there. Wright only entered F&F on 20th June 1916 and was already a star by the time he earned his MC.

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