Patt.1903 Scabbard (Land) Mk.I

[shippingsteel]

I am going to start a new thread on these P1903 scabbards as there is a lack of information about them and the genuine originals are getting incredibly hard to find.

There's an abundance of the Indian pattern leather scabbards on the collector market which certainly confuses the issue, but they should not be mistaken as correct.

An original British Patt.1903 scabbard will have the internal metal chape, and be stamped with the Broad Arrow and associated inspection marks alongside the seam.

They have an integrated leather frog with loop for attaching to the belt, with a neatly sewn seam down the right side. Here is the original pattern from List of Changes.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And this is what they look like in the flesh today ... from my experience they are one of the scarcest of scabbards to find these days (intact and in good condition).

I picked this one up at a show over the weekend, sitting on a table in plain sight. After some haggling the price paid was about what the bayonet alone was worth.!

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

The main reason for their scarcity is that far less of these scabbards were made in comparison to the bayonets - the earlier P1888 scabbards were substituted instead.

Both the P1903 and P1888 bayonets were interchangeable when it came to the scabbards. Only about 45,000 of these scabbards were made between 1903 and 1907.

The photo below shows how the internal steel chape served to plug the bottom of the sewn leathers. Even the very tip of the chape is stamped with a tiny Broad Arrow.!

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And this photo shows the inspection markings and date that are stamped alongside the seam at the back. These markings show that it is an original British scabbard.

From the top it has the Broad Arrow, then EFD for RSAF Enfield (the maker) a Crowned Enfield inspection mark, then the date of '05 and another inspection marking.

(The P1903 bayonet shown is not the best example but it is what came with the scabbard. I would have been happy with just an empty scabbard so it was a bonus.)

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Another shot which shows the conjoined arrows stamped up near the frog. This is the 'Sold out of Service' mark which was applied to all the kit leaving British service.

In this case it would have been sold-on to the early Australian colonial forces together with the brand new SMLE rifles. By 1905 there were 3,400 on issue in Australia.

(This scabbard surfaced from amongst a very large collection that a dealer had bought from an elderly gentleman as a job lot. It has obviously been there a long while.)

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

A couple more closeup shots that show just how keen they were to stamp everything with the Broad Arrow - especially that little one on the tip of the chape.!

It's something that people today simply cannot understand. They used to take the time to do things properly back then, and markings were used to keep track.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And this is the comparison between front and back showing the stitching patterns on the frog. The frog was slid on from the bottom and then fixed with a staple.

So that's all I've got - I hope these photos have been of interest. I would like to see some more examples and get some thoughts on just how scarce these are.?

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Whilst doing some more research on these scabbards on the net, I came across these photos of a similar but slightly different style from the same period.

This is the P1888 Mk.II variety which features a more prominent pressed leather plug at the tip, and an integral frog with a tag that attaches to the waistbelt.

The example shown is the slightly improved Mk.II* which has the two rivets on the tag, as opposed to the single brass button found on the original version.

Many of these earlier pattern scabbards were later converted to the standard P1903 format, by simply replacing the older frog and tag, with the newer style.

Cheers, S>S

[Waggoner]

S>S,

Fascinating! I have enjoyed your brief on the P'03 scabbards. My P'03 bayonet is one of those without a scabbard and I have always hoped to find one. Based on your information, finding one will be more of a task than I had thought!

All the best,

Gary

[shippingsteel]

Gary, the fallback position for your P1903 bayonet is to fit it in the standard P1888 Mk.I scabbard, which comes with the external chape and frog stud on the locket.

This is perfectly acceptable as the P'88 and P'03 scabbards were interchangeable on these bayonets, and I believe many P'03's were originally issued with these.

In regard to the Patt.1888 Mk.II scabbard posted above, here is the original schematic from the LOC. Note the single button on the first version and the larger plug tip.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Here is the closeup shot which shows the pressed leather plug which seals the tip of the Patt.1888 Mk.II scabbards (as well as the Patt.1888 Naval Mk.I versions)

Whilst this scabbard has been badly damaged, it is a good illustration of how the plug was attached. It was secured in place with a small brass pin (see blue arrow)

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

Here are a few scabbards that I managed to pick up for my P1903-

"India" pattern with P1903 bayonet, pommel marked BBCIR (Bombay & Barouda Central India Railways) indian refurbed 1888 (11 02 dated) EFD blade

1939 replacement mk1 type naval 1888 & 1903 scabbard with P1903 bayonet, pommel 2GR (Gloucester Regiment?) & 12 03 dated sanderson blade

mk3 naval scabbard with P1903 bayonet, pommel marked 2EK (2nd East Kent?)

mk2* 1888 with P1888 Mk1 type2 bayonet, no regimental marking only rack number & 1 93 dated blade

[Khaki]

Very interesting information as usual, do you know when the last 88's were converted into 03 bayonets ?

khaki

[trajan]

And on a similar note, when were P.1888's and P.1903's last in regular service? I have seen a reference on: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194834&page=2&hl=1941#entry2007743 post 26 that "The South African Pattern 1888s were manufactured by the South African Railways in 1941/1942. Unlike the Pattern 1907s and 1913 made over the same period they show minimal markings. The "M" on this particular bayonet probably indicates that it was made at the Maitland Railway Workshops. The scabbard bears the "S.A.R." standing for South African Railways. These bayonets were issued to members of the Defence Rifle Associations."

My reason for asking is: why are they some really nice metal-chape Land Pattern scabbards around marked CC 1941? Who made them and for what - P.1888's or P.1903's?

[msdt]

I only have one of these nice scabbards, and have just taken some shots. Looks like there are some minor variations on these Land Pattern ones. S>S's original posting is a beauty in wonderful condition. Here is mine:

Cheers,

Tony

[5thBatt]

Here are mine.

[shippingsteel]

Some nice scabbards shown here, with good illustrations of the original British production and inspection markings alongside the back seam.

I believe the extra loops sown on the back of the frog/hanger and towards the bottom of the scabbard are a later addition to attach the helve.

These loops are often seen on the scabbards that have come out of India, but I am not certain when they were added or who was responsible.

Cheers, S>S

[msdt]

Forgot to post the shot of the scabbard markings! Have also added ones of the pommel and throat markings that seem to show that the scabbard is matched - and maybe even to the GG number as there are 2 strike lines. The inspector looks the same as 5thBatt's - mine is 04.

Not sure about the extra bits being helve attachments S>S, they look so matched. I assumed that the one on the frog back was for extra strength for the staple connection. However as they are not on the 05 scabbards of 5thBatt were they added at one of the reissues, or just a different manufacturer?

Cheers,

Tony

[shippingsteel]

Tony, thanks for posting the extra seam markings. It all helps with determining the history and putting things into perspective. Your scabbard looks to have been made in 1904.

Like the 2 examples that 5thBatt posted, yours appears to have been made and/or inspected at RSAF Sparkbrook in Birmingham, with the Crown/B/number inspection marking.

So with same markings and style and just a year apart in date, lets assume they are made by the same manufacturer. The original scabbards as shown by 5thBatt have no loops.

As I said before, I believe they are a later addition ... and I suspect that this may have been done in India, as many scabbards of Indian origin also have these extra loops added.

EDIT. As an example see Sawdoc's scabbards in post #12. The "Indian pattern" scabbard shown to the left has this same style of stapled extra loop attached on the reverse side.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

The original scabbards as shown by 5thBatt have no loops... As I said before, I believe they are a later addition ... and I suspect that this may have been done in India, as many scabbards of Indian origin also have these extra loops added.

EDIT. As an example see Sawdoc's scabbards in post #12. The "Indian pattern" scabbard shown to the left has this same style of stapled extra loop attached on the reverse side.

By 'extra loops' do you mean the helve carrying straps? I have an 11/04 Enfield 1903 pommel marked 349 with land Pattern scabbard with the loop marked for the 1/5 HANTS, the scabbard throat marked 680.

As I understood it from Carl, when first reporting this one on GWF, this was a regular Indian pattern scabbard, loops top and bottom to take straps for the helve carrier: http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1888%20and%201903.htm

As I understand it, but have never really checked all this, the 1/5th Battalion Hampshire Regiment was raised August 1914 in Southampton, sailed for India 9 October 1914, landing at Karachi 11 November 1914, and stayed there for the rest of the war until May 1919, when it was at Kohat for service in Third Afghan War, but withdrawn 8 June, arriving back Southampton in November, when demobilised. I was given to understand that the bayonet and scabbard had come back from Afghanistan, but either way, there can be no doubt about Indian service only for the 1/5 Hants, the unit that employed this scabbard.

[trajan]

And on a similar note, when were P.1888's and P.1903's last in regular service? ... My reason for asking is: why are they some really nice metal-chape Land Pattern scabbards around marked CC 1941? Who made them and for what - P.1888's or P.1903's?

I thought some photographs might help. The 'CC' looks more like a 'CO' here, but that is due to a scratch in the leather - others I have seen are certainly CC. Yes, I know, 1941 made (or refurbished?- check that stitching going up from the 1941!), and so not WW1, but as they are made for a bayonet type that was used in the Great War then just about relevant!

[shippingsteel]

Seems like a lot of money to pay for a WW2 made scabbard ... (repaired and on its own) See HERE

[trajan]

OK, an update on this one...

... The 'CC' looks more like a 'CO' here, but that is due to a scratch in the leather - others I have seen are certainly CC. Yes, I know, 1941 made (or refurbished?- check that stitching going up from the 1941!), and so not WW1, but as they are made for a bayonet type that was used in the Great War then just about relevant!

From which followed:

Seems like a lot of money to pay for a WW2 made scabbard ... (repaired and on its own) See HERE

And so:

Indeed, but bought for about the same price as a replica would cost to have made, and as an item with a history and an old - almost 'period' - look, much better than a replica for display purposes! But more to the point, I knew that once I posted it you would be lured out of your sulk!!! Welcome back SS!!! I for one was certainly missing your pithy replies!!!

Anyway, the consensus among the cognoscenti of webbing and allied matters, is that:

"CC 1941 is actually Ca, for either Calcutta (original thoughts), but today we

think it's Cawnpore - a centre still of military production, who must have done the
refurbishment of a U.K. made scabbard."

So it is 'period' and refurbished, as I originally thought! In which case, a happy 'sister' to my 1/5 Hants marked example, and one that will make a happy interim 'marriage' with one of my 1903's! Now to find an Indian P.1903...

[sgt-maj]

Some really nice examples of the '03' there chaps.

This past week I purchased an 1903 dated SMLE No1 Mk1 - BSA & Co., all matching, all original. If I could work out how to post a pic or two! Anyway, my question is: Where am I likely to find a pre-1903 dated Pattern-1903 bayonet, without the clearance hole, and what would be the average asking price? Would £300 be reasonable?

Seph.

[trajan]

Nice buy there!

Do you mean the P.1888? I thought all P1903 's had clearance holes? I don't have access to S&R otherwise I'd check!