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Remembered Today:

British Summer Time on the front


LoweK

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I was just looking at the Diary for the 1/7th Robin Hoods and found the following:

ALTERATION TO TIME. British Armies in France addopted summer time at 11pm this day and all clocks and watches

--------------------------------- were advanced one hour and so 11pm became midnight.

Did the British use the UK time on the front, or did the French change their time?

Kevin

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Hello Kevin

It is a common misconception that French time in WW1 (and in WW2) was one hour ahead of British. It wasn't - the British, French and Belgians were all in the Greenwich time zone. The Germans were one hour ahead. The French did not change their normal time until some date in the mid-1950s - possibly when the Common Market began in 1957.

Daylight Saving Time was introduced in 1916 and applied by all Western Front combatants, though not necessarily on the same dates. The actual dates are given in the Introductions to the British Official History, in the first volume for the relevant year.

The Armistice came into force at 11 am GMT on 11 November 1918.

Ron

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  • 9 months later...

Sorry for using this "old" thread ...

The Armistice came into force at 11 am GMT on 11 November 1918.

Actually this is my question: So for the Germans Armistice came into force at 12 am German time (GMT+1)? Is that correct?

What time did US-forces use (e.g. in their war diaries)?

Regards,

Karsten

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From P.D. Ravenscroft's Unversed In Arms (his front line diary of his service with 2/KRRC) ...

"Second Leave [Thu 18th May - Fri 26th May 1916]

Clocks put forward in England, Sunday 21st [May 1916]"

"Wednesday 14th June 1916

[.... ] Summer-time introduced in France 11 p.m."

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Actually this is my question: So for the Germans Armistice came into force at 12 am German time (GMT+1)? Is that correct?

Yes.

What time did US-forces use (e.g. in their war diaries)?

I can't give you a firm quote, but I think that the Americans in France used the same time system as the French, and hence also the British. Nothing else would have made any sense.

Ron

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Hello Kevin

It is a common misconception that French time in WW1 (and in WW2) was one hour ahead of British. It wasn't - the British, French and Belgians were all in the Greenwich time zone. The Germans were one hour ahead. The French did not change their normal time until some date in the mid-1950s - possibly when the Common Market began in 1957.

Ron

I'm not sure that that is true. I can well remember the chaos that the French managed to cause in the 1970s when most of Europe went to using Summer Time, but not the French. We had people having to leave home and go a couple of miles down the road to get to work an hour later. Then get home mid-afternoon. Or was it vice versa? I remember once forgetting this myself and arriving for a dinner party across the border from me in France as the other guests were having their dessert.

It took a couple of years for this to be sorted out. At the same time Britain swore that civilisation would come to and end if they changed at the same time as everyone else, so we had the nonsense of special timetables for planes and boats and trains for the three weeks it took Britain to get in step - and that went on for years. It took a big row in the Council of Ministers for it to be changed - they simply said that Britain should change two weeks early and the other countries two weeks later. They met in the middle. Wonderful thing common sense. Why do politicians usually fail to use it?

IN WW1 this caused a lot of problems. When, in 1914, the Germans took over the Lorraine, they took hostages in Longuyon (I think it was Von Moltke) and they had to report by 1200. He fulminated at 1200 because none had arrived and he wanted to shoot the mayor and council. Then someone on his staff pointed out that he was on German time (an hour ahead) and that for the French it was 1100.

Before WW1 time it was a nightmare. I have an old guidebook somewhere that says something like , "Luxembourg time is 50 minutes after Belgian time, but 15 minutes before German time!"

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France adopted Paris Mean Time (PMT) in 1891. Before then local towns had local time. France had never officially accepted GMT maintaining that the zero meridian ran through Paris. However this caused chaos as other surrounding nations switched to time zones based on the Greenwich meridian. In 1911 it was announced that all French railway clocks would be reset to PMT but set slow by 9 minutes 21 seconds which effectively synchronised them with GMT without officially recognising GMT. Just as it had taken time to get all clocks and watches in France set to PMT it took more time to get everyone to adopt the new "railway time" version and there would still have been some French people sticking to the old PMT when WW1 started. However I believe that the French Army switched to GMT compatible time except when scheduling railway journeys when they built in a 5 minute delay to allow for unreliability in train arrivals. I'm not sure but I think that the French navy maintained PMT for navigation purposes as their chronometers and tables were precisely aligned to this.

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If the French used PMT, perhaps that is why they were/are so irritable and excitable when alongside the British!

Ron

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I can quote from a relevant document. The Diary of the 2nd Canadian Pioneer Battalion notes thuswise:

G.R.O. 2334 , dated 14.6.16 is published for information.

"The armies in France will adopt the same time as ordered by the recent decree of the French Government.

To give effect to this Order, at 11:00 p.m. on the 14th June 1916, the time will be advanced sixty minutes,

and 11:00 will become 12 midnight.

All clocks and watches will be altered accordingly.

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I can quote from a relevant document. The Diary of the 2nd Canadian Pioneer Battalion notes thuswise:

G.R.O. 2334 , dated 14.6.16 is published for information.

"The armies in France will adopt the same time as ordered by the recent decree of the French Government.

To give effect to this Order, at 11:00 p.m. on the 14th June 1916, the time will be advanced sixty minutes,

and 11:00 will become 12 midnight.

All clocks and watches will be altered accordingly.

Does this mean just a switch to summer time or does this mean that France ("recent decree of the French Government") introduced GMT+1 in 1916 as new national time so that France was in the same timezone as Germany? Regards, Karsten

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It means that the French adopted Summer Time. French "ordinary" time in both World Wars was the same as GMT, subject to the caveats mentioned by Centurion.

Why on earth would the French have shifted their time to be in step with their enemies? In any case, the Germans also adopted Summer Time.

Ron

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Why on earth would the French have shifted their time to be in step with their enemies? In any case, the Germans also adopted Summer Time.

Not quite so daft as it seems

Daylight saving as we know it is a New Zealand invention (although some Americans claim that Benjamin Franklin invented it but then some Americans claim that Benjamin Franklin invented everything) being first proposed in detail in 1895 by George Vernon Hudson. Germany and the KuK were the first industrialised nations in the world to adopt it doing so on April 30 1916. Britain and France followed suit in part citing the advantages that the Central Powers had gained from it as justification. The USA did not adopt it until 1918.

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I found the answer to my question: France had the same time like the UK during WW I. France had to change to GMT+1 (= German time) after the German occupation in 1940. And France never turned back. See here: http://www.persee.fr/articleAsPDF/bec_0373-6237_1999_num_157_2_450989/article_bec_0373-6237_1999_num_157_2_450989.pdf

So Armistice time in Germany must have been 12 a.m. German time.

Regards,

Karsten

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One thing I don't understand - that article says " German time’ (G.M.T +1 in winter, G.M.T in summer) " which implies that the clocks went back for summer. Spring forward fall back

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No - iit's a mistake in the English text of the abstract.

If you look at the French and German versions, the summer version is given as GMT + 2.

Ron

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