5th Division Signal Company in 1914 - 15

[delta]

Tank fans will be aware that William Watson (who wrote "A Company of Tanks") first served as a motor cyclist with the 5th Division's Signal Company. He told their story in "Adventures of a Despatch Rider".

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From Marticelli

We have made some discoveries about the despatch riders whose activities were described in Willie Watson's excellent book as a result of finding the albums and medals belonging to the Burney brothers, 'Grimers' and 'Cecil' as they appear in print. As a result we are planning to make a documentary for TV to be screened in 2014, alongside the many others that are no doubt being planned for such a momentous date. Plans are well advanced, but there is lots of research still to be done.

Importantly we have identified almost everyone in the group save for the chap who masquerades as 'Fatters' or 'Fat Boy', whose real identity still eludes us. Any suggestions anyone may have would of course be very welcome. All of these chaps seem to have enlisted at more or less the same time, and all have service numbers of five figures 280XX or 281XX, and one is tempted to assume that Fatters must be likewise in this same series. One could plod through the entire record to see if someone of a suitable name and service record is there, but this seems a tedious way to go. Perhaps someone reading this has an idea of where to find the true identity of this last character.

5th Divisional Signals Coy, RE, is very much the focus of our present research. The images in the album in effect provide a set of illustrations that perfectly match the stories in the book, although being a soldier's personal album, the images themselves are quite small and of dubious quality compared with official pictures taken by war photographers with plate cameras, which are usually of stunning quality. What is particularly helpful is that many of the images have handwritten captions or are annotated on the reverse which allow them to be viewed in the context of the book and this gives them an immediacy and clarity which is very powerful.

Looking forward to hearing from others anything that springs to mind about these brave men and their experiences.

Martin

[delta]

Here are images of the despatch riders

[vintagesunbeam]

Pictured above are 9 despatch riders of 5th Signal Coy - a tenth (Fielding Johnson) was killed in action soon after the very first contact with the Germans.

It seems that, like Watson, all of the motorcycle despatch riders had been recruited "off the street" when the war began. Watson says he was even told to buy a motorcycle (which the Army presumably paid them for). They had been civilians 2 weeks earlier, and to their surprise, found themselves in the Regular Army (as Corporals outranking many of the long service Regulars). Furthermore they found themselves in action almost as soon as they signed up.

Martin is the motorcycle expert, and I'm using my genealogy experience to research the individuals. I will shortly post some background information about individuals, and we're looking for anyone who might be connected with any of them.

Of course we'd also appreciate any related material, such as names and details of DRs in the other Divisions and at Corps and GHQ, and any pictures or information about equipment (eg motorcycles, other vehicles, uniform, riding gear, etc).

[vintagesunbeam]

We have now identified "oving" or "fat boy" or "fatters". His full name was Arnold Edersheim Overton, and we've concluded that the nickname was concocted from "over-a-ton"! In later life he became an eminent civil servant, serving at the Board of Trade (we have him pictured at the White House with FDR and Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada) and post war at the Ministry of Civil Aviation.

We've also found the war diary for 5th Signals Company at TNA which covers the retreat from Mons, the Battle of the Aisne, and First Ypres in great detail - fascinating material!

[Charles Fair]

Good thread - my book (see my signature) includes the letters of my great uncle, Reggie Secretan, who was a Despatch Rider with First Army Signals at Aire-sur-La-Lys from late 1914 until about August 1916. There are a few photos included, but not all as there wasn't space. I have a photo of him and his section (not sure of that's the right term for the MTASC) in which all are named. I will scan and post it in due course. (I haven't been able to locate a war diary for First Army Signals - I'm not sure if that is because one does not exist, or because I've been looking for the wrong name.)

Charles

[vintagesunbeam]

A very helpful response - I'm looking forward to seeing your photographs.

Two comments on what you say.

My understanding is that the BEF which landed in France in August 1914 comprised a number of divisions, specifically 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Divisions (Infantry) and Allenby's Cavalry Division in the first wave, then 4th Division in late August. Some elements of 4th Division arrived in time for the Battle of Le Cateau on 26th August. Each of these divisions was commanded by a Major-General. This order of battle had been long planned, but a late decision was taken (to conform with French practice?) to add a tier, namely the Corps, which were commanded by Lieutenant Generals Haig and Smith-Dorrien. Thus 1 Corps consisted of 1st and 2nd Divisions, 11 Corps of 3rd and 5th Divisions. In late August 111 Corps was formed from 4th and 6th Divisions. From which I assume that, after First Ypres, a further decision was taken to reconstitute the "Corps" as an "Army". However, I'm not expert enough to know whether the Armies were in fact bigger than the Corps which had preceded them.

Secondly, I've looked with interest at your book extracts and can immediately see the parallels between your subjects and these despatch riders - a group of well-educated highly motivated young men who threw themselves into the War. What distinguishes these August 1914 despatch riders is that, unlike most of their contemporaries in a host of other units who received, more or less, some training and planning before they were sent to the Front, the despatch riders found themselves under fire only two weeks after signing up. In 5th Signals that two weeks included a journey to Carlow and thence to France from Dublin to Le Havre. Watson's book tells us how the survivors, after the frenetic activity up to First Ypres, spent Christmas 1914 taking stock with the result that most of them began penning their applications for commissions.

[Charles Fair]

I'm not quite sure what he was in before the creation of First Army. Reggie's experience ceratinly seems close to that of your chaps. He spent a couple of weeks at Wembley and Grove Park, and was out in France after about three weeks. His main qualification was that he owned a motorbike. Photos will follow. I hope to do that over the weekend.

[Guest pazz1234]

Hi I have been looking for my grandfather the last 3 years.

All I started with was his name and two photos from each world war as he passed away in 1945

When my mother was 10 so she couldn't remember his date of birth or death but I have now found him.

He was Robert Thomas Williams he was originally pre ww1 the 1st Manchester Volunteers.

He signed up on 30th august 1915 at Manchester with the East Lancs Royal Engineers number 2332 later 442084 he left for France 17th march 1917 where he joined the 5th signal company ( my mother did say he used to sit her on his knee and tell her about his life and one thing was that he rode motorcycles in the war ? ) on the 8th April 1917.

This is where he stayed until 6th July 1918 where he was sent home from 30 general hospital suffering rheumatism,lumbago, bronchitis and partial deafness of right ear. He was shipped to shoreham command depot crowborough he stayed here until 18th December 1918 when he was transferred to RE rest camp Bedford he was then given TF35828 number on 1st January 1919 and then transferred to the reserve from unit Biggleswade signal depot RE on 25th march 1919.

He then again signed up for service in ww2 on 28th August 1939 with B company 101group NDC number D/14057 East Lancs Regiment attached to 5th and 6th Lancashire fusiliers then on 21st May 1940 he was discharged for reaching 60 although he had stated he was 54 a year earlier. He has then got written 6th(HD) East Lancashire regiment which are all predecessors to the home guard if I've got my research correct.

[hill89]

I am hoping that someone can shed light on an interesting letter written at the Front by a soldier in Nov 1914 - my distant relative Cpl (later Lt) Alfred B Gibaud Rgt no 29048. His medal card gives this info: Theatre of war served in – P/167468/1; Date of entry therein - 26/10/14 – WS/1/10075. The letter gives some details of his involvement and location and I wonder if anyone knows how he fits into the greater scheme of the conflict.

These are the details in the letter:-

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  His family in Bristol received the letter on 17 November 1914.

  
  
  
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  He left England a fortnight before as a motor despatch rider with the Royal Engineers

  
  
  
• 
  

  He wrote that he is at the headquarters of the 6th Division in France not far from the Belgian frontier, and that he is near a lot of Indian troops, who are doing "magnificent work."

  
  
  
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  He adds that he is in the fresh air most of the time, gets plenty of good, plain food and never felt more fit and well.

  
  
  
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  In his first experience of carrying despatches at night without lights he was at one time within 1,500 yards of the German trenches.

  
  
  
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  It is really awful, he says, to see the damage that is being done by the big shell fire, and to observe the large number of refugees wandering about waiting for the British to advance so that they can get back to their homes....

  
  
  

I would be very thankful for more info on the 'motor-cycle despatch riders', .also the geographical location of the HQ of the 6th Division in France [not far from the Belgian frontier - as stated in the letter] and who are the 'Indian troops' referred to?

Best regards

Richard

[mark wastell]

Arnold Edersheim Overton was my grandfather. I didn't know he was referred to as "Fatters" or "Fat Boy" by his comrades during WWI. This is quite funny as he wasn't at all fat but was quite tall. I believe there are some WW1 diaries of his in our family that I have heard referred to as detailed and factual. He was a modest and intelligent man who received an MC for some wartime deed of his as a dispatch rider but never would say for what he had received it. If asked he would just brush it off. In fact I still don't know and am just about to make some enquiries to find out. Long overdue, you might say!

[Ron Clifton]

Rickshelley

By Christmas 1914 there were eight corps in the BEF, and First and Second Armies were formed on Boxing Day under Haig and Smith-Dorrien. First Army had I, IV and Indian Corps, Second had II, III and V, and the two cavalry corps remained under GHQ.

Ron

[generalist]

I would be very thankful for more info on the 'motor-cycle despatch riders', .also the geographical location of the HQ of the 6th Division in France [not far from the Belgian frontier - as stated in the letter] and who are the 'Indian troops' referred to?

Best regards

Richard

Hi Richard,

There's a good outline of the work of despatch riders, and why they were key in the first months of the war, in chapters 1-3 of RE Priestley's "The Signal Service in the European War of 1914-18" - https://archive.org/details/signalserviceine00prie - particularly p. 22 onwards.

(Many of them had been brought into the Army at the outbreak of war, often from the universities, which would fit with him later getting a temporary commission and with the 29xxx service number - this looks likely to be late 1914 per http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/royal-engineers-1881-1914.html )

6th Division were around Armentières, just south of Ypres, at this time.

The Indians were the Indian Corps, who served in France until late 1915 (though some cavalry remained right until 1918) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Expeditionary_Force_F#Indian_Expeditionary_Force_A

Andrew.

[delta]

Hello Mark - welcome to the Forum

Your grandfather's service file is held at the National Archive

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C1116384

The London Gazette shows he was commissioined on 16 Jun 1916 but into the Royal Artillery. His service file shows he served in the Royal Engineers

I cannot find the citation for his Military Cross but it will be for his service as an officer - not as a despatch rider

[mark wastell]

Hello Delta - thank you for providing a link to my grandfather's service file - most helpful - I've now started the process of ordering a copy of it.

I talked to my mother about Arnold Edersheim Overton's (her father) MC and she thinks it related to the period when he was attached to General Alenby's forces who were trying to push back the German's from Turkey/Palestine/Middle East (a bit vague here!). The version of events that her mother (AEO's wife) told her when she was a child was that AEO was a very junior officer on the expedition and a lot of high up officers arrived to join the force. They lost their way and kept losing their way in the middle of the desert. AEO is supposed to have said: "Excuse me, Sir, I know the way" and he then was able to show them and lead them to safety. And for this, my mother was told, he was awarded an MC.

But obviously, there was a bit more to it than this! Hopefully I may be able to find out more for her.

Incidentally, my mother does have AEO's WW1 diaries, that I mentioned which I believe cover the period when he was a dispatch rider.

Mark

[delta]

Hello Mark

Glad you have managed to get his file - hopefully the MC Citation may appear.

It certainly wpuld have been awarded for something fairly brave

Stephen

[TEW]

I started a thread about a 5th Div. Sig. Coy. man some time ago.

Sorry, but it looks as if all my original links from the thread are dead, will try to sort that out.

He is 25369 George Edward Vail, there is also a diary he kept (transcribed later) for Aug 14 to July 18. His jobs include:

Linesman, Dispatch rider, Flag Waver, Buzzer Operator.

TEW

[mark wastell]

Hello Delta,

Regarding my grandfather Arnold Edersheim Overton, I have now received copies of his records (about 16 sides of official forms completed in handwriting) from the National Archives ("WO 339" records) They set out his progress to Lieutanant by appointments and promotions from 1914 but there is no reference to his military cross or any citation explaining what he received the MC for.

I understand officers' records may be kept elsewhere but don't know where to look. It seems to be labyrinthine. An ideas?

I do know that the medal was awarded for his part as a junior officer in the Palestine campaign.

Here is a brief summary in date order of his service record gleaned from the National Archive stuff they sent me:

Oxford University 1911-14

Military college 1914

Aug 1914 - Motor Cycle section of Royal Engineers Regimental Number: 28095

8 Aug 1914 - enlisted and appointed to Corporal (motor cyclist in 5th Signal Company)

17 Aug 1914 - Arrival in France with 5th Signal Company

Expeditionary Force France: 14 August 1914 - 20 December 1915

27 Sept 1915 - appointed Sergeant (of dispatch riders) Royal Engineers, 10th Corps Signal Company

Nov 1915 - Applied Signal Service - Royal Engineers

16 June 1916 - appointed temporary Second Lieutenant Royal Engineers

9 April 1918 - London Gazette announces his MC (along with others) but no citation is given. (I found this out from the internet)

6 March 1919 - Completed Service

2 March 1921 - retained rank of Lieutanant

R.E. Record Office Chatham

20 December 2015 - Transferred from 10 CHQ Signal Company to F.S Signal Department.

15 June 2016 - Discharged (presumably from F.S Signal Dept) having been appointed to a Commission Authority W.O. ? No 136633/1(a?y) date 8th June 2016.

DOCS OUT January 1923

Apologies for rather overloading you with detail! I wasn't sure what might be relevant or useful.

If you have any ideas or know of anyone else who could help please let me know.

Many thanks.

Mark Wastell

[delta]

Mark

Sorry for the delay in responding but my laptop has required a rebuild over the festive season.

The service record (WO 339/62546) is held at the National Archives and is from that file that the staff at Kew would have drawn the information above.

Sadly I can't find the cititation for his MC in the London Gazette.

[mark wastell]

Thanks Stephen,

I'll keep trying - the information must be held somewhere, you would think.

Mark.

[mark wastell]

Hi Stephen,

Just to update. Fourteen Eighteen Researchers looked into the MC question for me. The tell me that Arnold Edersheim Overton's MC was awarded during the Palestine Campaign in connection with the capture of Jerusalem. However, there is no full citation given anywhere officially. They say: "You will not find a citation, as such, for the MC. This Jerusalem-related batch appear not to have had any published."

The records at the War Office in London - which might have provided more details - were destroyed during bombing in WWII apparently.

There is just a slim chance that there might be a record in a local newspaper in the area of AEOs home address the researchers at Fourteen Eighteen say.

Haven't checked this out as yet.

Best,

Mark

[Guest]

Hi there,

 

I'm rather late to this post, but stumbled upon it after reading WHL Watson's fantastic book. I was glad to hear about the proposed documentary about 5th Signals Company. Has it been made?

 

My great grandfather was a despatch rider named Cyril Williams who signed up in 1914. I am a screenwriter and currently writing a feature film screenplay about his life. I've been trying to gather as much information as possible and these forums have been most helpful. Many of you may have read Michael Carraghers fantastic book San Fairy Ann? Well worth a read.

 

Sarah