Peter Doyle Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Ok, I should know this...and there have been other threads (none of which I can find), but...apart from the obvious blue enamel, can I get a definitive answer from someone in the know about water bottle patterns, please? I'm confused about cover-colour, seams and shoulders. Anyone game? Hope so...I've got a lot of water bottles to sort out, and I'm still confused Thanks! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Ok, I should know this...and there have been other threads (none of which I can find), but...apart from the obvious blue enamel, can I get a definitive answer from someone in the know about water bottle patterns, please? I'm confused about cover-colour, seams and shoulders. Anyone game? Hope so...I've got a lot of water bottles to sort out, and I'm still confused Thanks! Peter KARKEE WEB No illustrations yet but some useful references to LoC etc Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 3 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2012 A good start, thanks! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Ok, I should know this...and there have been other threads (none of which I can find), but...apart from the obvious blue enamel, can I get a definitive answer from someone in the know about water bottle patterns, please? I'm confused about cover-colour, seams and shoulders. Anyone game? Hope so...I've got a lot of water bottles to sort out, and I'm still confused Thanks! Peter Peter, Reference the WW1 Water Bottle & Carrier, as Chris suggested to you, I also contacted Karkee Web regarding a Water Bottle & Carrier I have in my Collection, and was pleased to hear that it was in fact a somewhat unusal version, in that instead of the usual stitching, it has rivets, and they intend to use my example on their website. I am attaching a photograph, plus their comments :- " the water bottle carrier. "C & M" is "Currier & Manufacturer", i.e., a firm that prepares and dresses leather, rather than just fabricates from pre-tanned hides. You have a splendid example of the Carrier, Water bottle, with strap (Mark II), as introduced by LoC 12994, authorised 9 Sep 1905. Yours is somewhat unusual in that not only the body, but also the web to leather portion of the strap is riveted. That is usually a sewn connection. " Hope this helps. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Peter, Another photograph, showing a better view of the rivet connections. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 4 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2012 Very nice, thanks.... P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thorne Posted 4 February , 2012 Share Posted 4 February , 2012 Water bottles. Yes, someday we will cover them in better detail on Karkee Web, but we haven't gotten to it as yet. So much to do! As of today, the best info on water bottles is an article that John Bodsworth and Rog Dennis did for The Armourer several years ago. I promised Pete from Australia a copy of that a while back. I've gotten as far as digging the scans out, but I haven't sent it out yet. I'll try to pdf it this weekend and post a link on this thread in the next day or so. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 4 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2012 Thanks, that would be great! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 5 February , 2012 Share Posted 5 February , 2012 Hi John I was struck by the 'Currier & Manufacturer' attribution - which I'd always thought of as 'Civil & Military', as styled by several period outfitters. When I googled 'Currier & Manufacturer', the only references to it on seemingly the entire internet are Kharkee Web's own. Which is a bit surprising, given how often this marking is seen. Not for a minute am I saying that 'Currier & Manufacturer' is wrong, I'd just love to have an 'independent' source - not least so I don't use 'Civil & Military' incorrectly anymore. Can you help? Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 5 February , 2012 Share Posted 5 February , 2012 Hi John I was struck by the 'Currier & Manufacturer' attribution - which I'd always thought of as 'Civil & Military', as styled by several period outfitters. When I googled 'Currier & Manufacturer', the only references to it on seemingly the entire internet are Kharkee Web's own. Which is a bit surprising, given how often this marking is seen. Not for a minute am I saying that 'Currier & Manufacturer' is wrong, I'd just love to have an 'independent' source - not least so I don't use 'Civil & Military' incorrectly anymore. Can you help? Cheers, GT. It may relate just to leather goods, as on the base of my Water Bottle Carrier, there is an oval impressed Maker's Mark and their location " London ", and the manufacture date of 1918. Within the oval is the mark " C & M ", and it is this mark put on the leather, which I am told by Karkee, shows this maker to be a Currier and Manufacturer of leather goods i.e. a firm that prepares and dresses leather, rather than just fabricates from pre-tanned hides. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 5 February , 2012 Share Posted 5 February , 2012 Hi John I was struck by the 'Currier & Manufacturer' attribution - which I'd always thought of as 'Civil & Military', as styled by several period outfitters. When I googled 'Currier & Manufacturer', the only references to it on seemingly the entire internet are Kharkee Web's own. Which is a bit surprising, given how often this marking is seen. Not for a minute am I saying that 'Currier & Manufacturer' is wrong, I'd just love to have an 'independent' source - not least so I don't use 'Civil & Military' incorrectly anymore. Can you help? Cheers, GT. Perhaps the term " Civil & Military " , when applied to various Outfitters of say clothing, as seen frequently in Saville Row, London, back then, and also now, means that particular Outfitter makes both suits etc., for the civilian customer, as well as uniforms for their military customers. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 5 February , 2012 Share Posted 5 February , 2012 Perhaps the term " Civil & Military " , when applied to various Outfitters of say clothing, as seen frequently in Saville Row, London, back then, and also now, means that particular Outfitter makes both suits etc., for the civilian customer, as well as uniforms for their military customers. LF Indeed that is the generally taken to be the case - leather goods or otherwise: hence my curiosity that the only place on the entire interweb saying 'Currier & Manufacturer' is Kharkee Web itself. There is no other reference to that anywhere, and rather than explicitly doubt the accuracy of their assertion; it would be nice to see if there's a source to be had first. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim P Posted 5 February , 2012 Share Posted 5 February , 2012 I would be grateful for images of the type of water bottle that the RAMC would have used... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 5 February , 2012 Share Posted 5 February , 2012 Indeed that is the generally taken to be the case - leather goods or otherwise: hence my curiosity that the only place on the entire interweb saying 'Currier & Manufacturer' is Kharkee Web itself. There is no other reference to that anywhere, and rather than explicitly doubt the accuracy of their assertion; it would be nice to see if there's a source to be had first. Cheers, GT. GT. I found this reference to a " Currier & Manufacturer " business in the Bloomsbury area of London, dating back to at least 1860. " No. 91 (new number; building demolished and site now occupied by Castlewood House) was the business premises of John S. Deeds & Sons, curriers and manufacturers of leather goods, from at least 1860 " I think this reference to being a " Currier and Manufacturer " or " C & M " is strictly a leather trade term, rather than a Government or Army term. I have other WW1 leather items which in addition to the Maker's Mark, location and date, also have the " C & M " mark. The Currier is a separate part of the leather trade, as is the Manufacturer, who converted the hides processed by the Currier into actual leather goods. By marking their items " C & M ", they were telling everyone that they were not just Curriers, but Manufacturers also, and that they process their own hides, i.e. A Currier and Manufacturer, a " C. & M. " In the context of the leather goods supplied for military use in WW1 by the private soldier, as with the Water Bottle Carrier, this has no relationship to the high quality bespoke uniforms etc., supplied to officers at high cost by the Civil and Military Outfitters in places like Saville Row, none of which would have turned out leather goods for the average soldier like a Water Bottle Carrier. So I think we probably have two terms that could be applied to the initials " C. & M ", it could certainly stand for Civil & Military, as in bespoke uniforms etc., however on basic leather equipment supplied to the private soldier, and when used as an integral part of the Leather Trade Maker's Mark, it probably stands for " Currier & Manufacturer " as described in the old London trade description for Messrs. John S. Deeds & Sons, curriers and manufacturers of leather goods, shown above. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 6 February , 2012 Share Posted 6 February , 2012 Peter, I think this is some of the info you are looking for: This post has some nice info from Chris P http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142164&st=0&p=1357473&hl=waterbottles&fromsearch=1entry1357473 this post has the photos http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102216&st=0&p=963193&hl=waterbottles&fromsearch=1entry963193 Take care, Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 6 February , 2012 Share Posted 6 February , 2012 LF Thanks for that - seems most probable. And changing my search from 'Currier & Manufacturer' to 'Currier and Manufacturer' produced many usages, so shows what an ampersand amongst collectors can do! Cheers, GT. My pleasure, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 6 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2012 Peter, I think this is some of the info you are looking for: Joe Sweeney Thanks Joe - exactly the threads I was looking for. Having read those a few times, inwardly digested the info and then promptly forgot it, I was starting to worry having amassed a collection of miscellaneous bottles over the years... Best wishes and thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 13 February , 2012 Share Posted 13 February , 2012 Coming a bit late to this thread, but I've always believed C&M to be Civil and Military. It may or may not be that, but it isn't Currier and Manufacturer. Here it is on a drum made by Henry Potter & Co in 1888. Potters only ever made drums and wind instruments. Over the years I've seen the C&M stamping on other items not made from leather, possibly more 19th than 20th century, but this is the only example I have so it'll have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking_raid Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 Gentlemen, I'm also coming in late on the thread...but I need help.. I'm in the process of buying this water bottle. Firstly 'what is it ?' I believe it is a Boer War era British bottle, the blue enamel to me makes me think so. Second, if it is military does any one know anything about this style of bottle ? -Were these used in WW1 by the British army or Navy ? -Would these have been surplused to British colonialies for miliita or paramilitary groups after the Boer War ? Thanks in advance for your help. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Viking_raid, This water bottle, looks very similar to your's. It is described as circa 1890, comes from Canada, although it could be of English manufacture, and is said to have been used by the Canadian Militia ? Its size is given as 25 cm. I have photographs of 2 other water bottles of similar shape both dated around 1900, however, in both cases the water bottle carrier is leather. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monochrome Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Round enamel pattern Mark IV introduced 1895 remained in service up to WW1. It was similar to the Mark III but that had a metal screw cap retained by a short leather strap. (source 'Saddle Up' by Rick Landers 1998) British made and used by us Aussies Boer War era etc. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking_raid Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Gents, My water bottle is located in Newfoundland, which was a Dominion by itself prior to 1949. Our Militia and paramilitary groups seem to have used a lot of Boer war era equipment to train with leading up to and including WW1. I have a Lee Speed (Long Lee, just like the Metford), and a couple of Martini Enfield artillery carbines that fall into this catagory. It seems like this practice just wasn't limited to firearms. Would there be maker marking somewhere on the canteen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Hello VR You have - as a previous poster states - the standard water bottle used by the British Army before, during and immediately after the Boer War. It would normally have a buff or brown leather sling, though later on some did have web slings, but this one looks untypical and has probably been added. The bottle won't be maker marked so don't feel tempted to remove the cover. This looks a nice example. Glass or thin tinny bottles are often passed off as Boer War bottles, but that's wishful thinking and they should be blue enamel, either with the same orangey felt cover as on this one, or in greyish felt. I don't know why the two colours were used side by side, but there seems to be no significance in it, and their use continued into WW1. Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking_raid Posted 24 February , 2012 Share Posted 24 February , 2012 Thanks Wainfleet for your detailed reply. I will certainly be holding on to this bottle. I guess it would not be out of place with my 1915 dated set of 1908 webbing. Also, thanks Monochrome, and Lancashire Fusilier for your response as well. I love this forum.. lots of gracious experts, eager to share knowledge on a topic that I love : ) Makes me proud to be of British Heritage. Cheers VR Hello VR You have - as a previous poster states - the standard water bottle used by the British Army before, during and immediately after the Boer War. It would normally have a buff or brown leather sling, though later on some did have web slings, but this one looks untypical and has probably been added. The bottle won't be maker marked so don't feel tempted to remove the cover. This looks a nice example. Glass or thin tinny bottles are often passed off as Boer War bottles, but that's wishful thinking and they should be blue enamel, either with the same orangey felt cover as on this one, or in greyish felt. I don't know why the two colours were used side by side, but there seems to be no significance in it, and their use continued into WW1. Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest algis Posted 30 March , 2012 Share Posted 30 March , 2012 Hi to all I'm new here , and help if it's possible . I dug bottle like this , in Lithuania , at the place , where in the first world war was the front line . Can anyone help identify it please ? Thanks in advance stegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now