ASC relationship to RGA

[Seany]

I am wondering how the ASC supported a siege battery and whether a specific ASC company would have been allocated to a specific battery and how close the relationship would have been. Any pointers?

thank you kindly.

[SFayers]

I am wondering how the ASC supported a siege battery and whether a specific ASC company would have been allocated to a specific battery and how close the relationship would have been. Any pointers?

thank you kindly.

Hi Sean,

If I recall correctly (which I might not!), at least towards the end of the war, for brigaded batteries ASC companies dedicated to this type of support were mostly allocated at the Brigade (RGA) level rather than to individual batteries - but as I say I may have got the wrong end of the stick! Hopefully more knowledgable forum members have a definitve answer!

All the best

Steve

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Seany

This is a very tricky area. I have been studying the composition of units and formations, mostly from the War Establishments in class WO24 at Kew, for about forty years and I stll haven't found a definitive answer! Forum Pal Peridot has also wrestled with it in some threads he has started in this subforum, headed "293 SB" and "717 Company ASC", I think.

The easiest approach is to divide the war into three stages, as far as the RGA is concerned. This applies to France, and with modifications to the other theatres of war as well. They do not include the AA units.

1. The build-up phase. In this period, from Aug 1914 until March 1916, heavy and siege batteries were sent out from the UK as brigades of (usually) two or three batteries of the same type. Most of these batteries had horse-drawn transport, manned by RGA personnel, including integral ammunition columns.

2. The middle phase, from April 1016 to January 1918. Heavy and Siege Batteries were grouped into Heavy Artillery Groups, of variable composition, dictated by the needs of the moment. This is the tricky period.

3. The final phase, from Feb 1918 onwards. By this time the composition of each HAG had become more static and they were grouped into five different types. These were re-designated Brigades RGA (Mobile, Mixed, 8" Howitzer, 9.2" Howitzer and Army), with each of which was associated a particular ASC MT Company, as Steve says in the previous post.

During the middle period, each Army and each Corps was allocated an "ASC MT Company attached for Heavy Artillery" which was responsible for the movement and ammunition supply of the RGA of that Army or Corps, and the numbering given in the various orders of battle suggests that, with a few exceptions, the same company served with each Army or Corps throughout. In early 1917 the nomenclature of (Corps) Siege Park was adopted, but seems to have been discontinued later that year.

My belief is that these Siege Parks contained a small nucleus of administrative personnel (and, thanks to Peridot, I have a sample breakdown of this showing about 40 all ranks) and a number of separate detachments, each representing a Siege Battery Ammunition Column (SBAC). An establishment dated Sept 1915 shows the transport personnel of a four-gun Siege Battery as follows:

"2 Subalterns, 3 Serjeants, various Drivers (68 for 6"h, 120 for 6"g, 99 for 8"h, 126 for 9.2"h), 3 Batmen.

In each case drivers include 2 for motor cars and 50% spare."

The real unanswered question is how permanent the assignments of men, or whole detachments, were to individual batteries during what I have called the middle period. In his book Army Service Corps 1902-1918, Colonel Mike Young lists all the ASC Companies and some are described as SBACs, but I don't know whether we should infer from this that the same company constituted the SBAC for the same Siege Battery throughout.

I hope this helps, though of course it doesn't fully answer your question!

Ron

[Seany]

2. The middle phase, from April 1016 to January 1918. Heavy and Siege Batteries were grouped into Heavy Artillery Groups, of variable composition, dictated by the needs of the moment. This is the tricky period.

Thanks Ron and Steve - mine of course falls under the difficult tricky middle bit !

[rflory]

Major Charles E. Berkeley Lowe,DSO, MC, RGA in his book Siege Battery 94 during the World War 1914-1918 writes the following:

"Towards the end of April [1916], 94 its home training completed, was sent to Storkcross near Newbury (Berks), where it took over its own guns (four 9.2-inch howitzers, Mark 1) and stores complete, and first beheld its own RASC Ammunition Column, consisting of an amazing array of thirty-two 3-ton lorries [to carry ammo and supplies] , four caterpillar tractors [to pull the four guns] and one Daimler light car under 2nd Lieut. R. T. Dunn, RASC (MT)."

The nominal roll of the RASC Ammunition Column stayed with the battery for the entire war and during that time 14 RASC subalterns, five sergeants, 15 corporals, 11 lance corporals and 91 privates served with it.

Regards, Dick Flory

[Seany]

Thanks Dick, its difficult pinning these relationships down for individual batteries - I assume that there is a very clear distinction between who was in the ASC and who was in the RGA and what the chain of command was?

Major Charles E. Berkeley Lowe,DSO, MC, RGA in his book Siege Battery 94 during the World War 1914-1918 writes the following:

"Towards the end of April [1916], 94 its home training completed, was sent to Storkcross near Newbury (Berks), where it took over its own guns (four 9.2-inch howitzers, Mark 1) and stores complete, and first beheld its own RASC Ammunition Column, consisting of an amazing array of thirty-two 3-ton lorries [to carry ammo and supplies] , four caterpillar tractors [to pull the four guns] and one Daimler light car under 2nd Lieut. R. T. Dunn, RASC (MT)."

The nominal roll of the RASC Ammunition Column stayed with the battery for the entire war and during that time 14 RASC subalterns, five sergeants, 15 corporals, 11 lance corporals and 91 privates served with it.

Regards, Dick Flory

[Peridot]

Thanks Dick, its difficult pinning these relationships down for individual batteries - I assume that there is a very clear distinction between who was in the ASC and who was in the RGA and what the chain of command was?

My understanding is that the SBACs were in fact transport sections of the Siege Parks and were allocated to a Battery for the time it was with the

HAG or Corps. There was liaison between the Battery Commander and the Senior Motor Transport Officer of the Siege Park who would provide the transport to move guns in the form of a transport section who would also carry ammunition but that's about all. The ASC and RGA were quite distinct with separate chains of command.

Hope this helps.

Peridot

[Kate Wills]

Are Divisional Ammunition Columns and Divisional Supply Columns two names for the same thing?

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Kate

No!

Divisional Train = four HT companies ASC, dealing with supplies to front-line units, other than ammunition.

Divisional Supply Column - one MT company ASC, re-stocking the Div Train.

Divisional Ammunition Column = a four-section RFA unit with horse transport, supplying ammunition to front-line units.

Divisional Ammunition Park = one MT company ASC, re-stocking the Div Amm Column.

In 1918, Div Supply Columns and Div Amm Parks were merged to form Div MT Companies.

Div Supply Columns and Div Amm Parks were originally L of C units, but became Corps troops by 1916.

Ron

[Kate Wills]

Thankyou Ron.

I'm currently trying to trace a man who was with the ASC in a Divisional Supply Column in 1915. That will stop me going down the wrong path.