trajan Posted 18 August , 2011 Share Posted 18 August , 2011 One of the things I always tell my students is never use or rely on a web-page quote that does not give a supporting publication or other reference. I have recently found two web-pages that refer to an order issued in 1915 that German regimental officers had to wear the S98/05 bayonet instead of their swords; and that photographic evidence suggests that many officers instead preferred to wear a kS98 bayonet - but no supporting evidence in either for either 'fact'. Can anyone out there verify that this order was issued? And/or can anyone supply photographic evidence that the kS98 was worn by officers? I'd be glad to hear from you! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie B Posted 18 August , 2011 Share Posted 18 August , 2011 Trajan According to Anthony Carter (German Bayonets Vol II). the Prussian war Ministry issued an order on 19th July 1915 that all regimental officers should wear the S98-05 in place of their swords. Airmen and airship personnel were allowed to wear the kS98. There is a photo in the book of a Flieger Leutnant with a kS98 and I'm sure I've seen a few other photos. Richie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Thanks Richie, I thought there might be something in Carter - but copies of any of his works are rarer than an nun in a brothel over here...! (Incidentally, I saw a 'new' copy of Carter's Ersatz Bayonets advertised on A****n with a price tag of UKL 5,000.00... I know it is a 'hard to get hold of book' but I can only assume that there is a mistake somewhere there!). Richie (or anyone else with access to Carter's works), does Carter say anything on 'privately purchased' KS 98's? The thing is that I have a E & F HORSTER / SOLINGEN KS 98 with sawback (and, alas, a broken quillion), and the maker's stamp is identical to that used by Horster on a 1913 German colonial bayonet I have seen, making me think that mine is probably Imperial period. But mine has NO other markings (i.e., no ruler/year/fraktur stamps on the spine and nothing on the pommel), making me think it might be a 'private purchase'. Just to confuse matters, though, apart from being the two screwbolts type of KS 98, the small piece of one grip that survives is checkered bakelite, which I always thought was strictly Weimar/3rd Reich period... I should make it clear that I don't think this KS 98 is a Weimar/3rd Reich dress bayonet: there is no evidence that it was ever plated; it has a fully functional rifle fitting in the handle (including clearance hole); and it has a regular Horster / Solingen mark, not the fancy type used on dress bayonets. If mine is Imperial, I suppose it could have had its original grips replaced at a later date - or did any German WWI bayonets use bakelite grips? Any comments or information gratefully received! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie B Posted 19 August , 2011 Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Trajan To quote Carter " On the 19th July 1915 the Prussian War Ministry ordered all regimental officers to replace their swords with S98/05 with the exception of airmen and airship personnel who were allowed to wear the kS98. The Bavarians issued a similar order four weeks later on 20th August, but in spite of regulations many officers preferred and carried the kS98. The majority were purchased privately, and there are many minor variations of the official service pattern" I suppose their is a sort of logic there as Germans officers purchased their own swords, so I guess they would also purchase their own ks98s. The example you quote does sound like a private purchase item as I would expect issue versions to have the royal cypher/date and fraktur inspections stamps. Bakelite was invented in 1907 - it certainly wasn't used on issue bayonets. Bakelite grips are found on WW1 era private purchase fighting knives with kS98 style hilts and a variety of blades including sawbacks. If you are interested in Carter's books some are available here. IMA - Carter Not exactly cheap but then good reference books, to me are invaluable ! Regards Richie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2011 Richie, you are a marvel! Thanks for all that information - I have been wondering how to catalogue this one since I bought it at the local antique fair three months back (it was at the local equivalent of UKL 17:00). So, I propose to describe it as an Imperial period private purchase KS 98, with the remains of a possibly original bakelite grip. OK? BTW, I'll just have to live with the broken-off quillion, but I'd like to get a scabbard for this - any idea if the scabbard for the sawback KS 98 had the same throat as the regular KS 98? Or did it have a shaped one with notches on one side as for the 98/05? Thanks also for the hint re: where to buy copies of Carter's books. I'll follow that one up - but I first need to check current local Customs practice: for a while any books ordered from outside Turkey that were valued at more than EU 50 / US$ 50 / UKL 50 had a 100% import tax slapped on! (And people wonder why - according to anecdotal evidence - Turkish students are amongst the most prolific in the world at copying entire textbooks!) Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie B Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Trajan Thanks for the praise - the hard work was done by Anthony Carter. I'm really not sure on the scabbard question. The military ones in theory should be interchangeable although I must admit I haven't tested this with the ones in my collection. The sawback kS98 is the only military issue version - there wasn't a non sawback version. A lot of private purchase bayonets are described as kS98s but technically they aren't although the style/design features obviously are the same or very similar in a lot of cases. Happy collecting ! Richie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Many of the private purchase KS98 looke (other than the stamps) just like the issue ones... with all the features... but do NOT fit on the rifle. Hold it next to an issue one and you will not see the difference, but for some reason they are a half mm out, deliberately made that they can only be used as an officers sidearm or for going out dress. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2011 I'm really not sure on the scabbard question. The military ones in theory should be interchangeable although I must admit I haven't tested this with the ones in my collection. ... A lot of private purchase bayonets are described as kS98s but technically they aren't although the style/design features obviously are the same or very similar in a lot of cases. Richie Thanks again - Carter did the work but you got the reference for me, As it is, my 'kS98' does fit a spare 'Turked' 'Mauser scabbard I have - but it is a bit tight and I don't want to damage the sawback so will look around. And I suppose I had better describe this as 'A kS 98-type bayonet'! Chris: I don't have a rifle to try it on but I have compared the rifle fitting on my kS98 with my 98/05 bayonets and it is an exact match. Guess some private purchase owners wanted to be certain the thing would work in extremis! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Chris: I don't have a rifle to try it on but I have compared the rifle fitting on my kS98 with my 98/05 bayonets and it is an exact match. Guess some private purchase owners wanted to be certain the thing would work in extremis! Trajan Hi, when I compare them to my other bayonets I do not see the difference either..... but mounting is still impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 Trajan, Here are a few more snippets taken from John Walter's "The German Bayonet", which is another useful reference. Regarding the officers wearing bayonets - "... so officers were ordered to send their swords home in 1915. Many took to wearing bayonets or trench knives, and the KS98, which could be purchased in better-than-issue qualities, was greatly favoured." Regarding the actual bayonets themselves (ie. issue or 'dress')- "The three-rivet type was the official pattern, and most of the others are 'dress' or off-duty pieces - although even some military pieces have been seen with wood grips, or two rivets, or two standard German plain-head bolts. The presence of army inspection stamps (small crowned Gothic letters) is the final arbiter; even the absence of a cypher or date is inconclusive." Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 August , 2011 Chris, interesting fact, that the mortice etc., dimensions look the same but dress kS 98's won't actually fit on a rifle. Wish I could find out if that was the case with mine! S>S, thanks for the reference - John Walter's "The German Bayonet". Have to admit I have not yet got a proper library as I consider myself still at the beginner stage, but fortunately the univ. librarian is friendly and interested in the topic ('justifiable research') so I can at least order what is in print (BTW, a real b****r that so many vital works - e.g. Carter - are out of print: incidentally, I e-mailed Maddox and he has no intention of doing a reprint of Collecting Bayonets - but did not explain why!). So to your second quote from Walter - "The three-rivet type [of kS 98] was the official pattern, and most of the others are 'dress' or off-duty pieces - although even some military pieces have been seen with wood grips, or two rivets, or two standard German plain-head bolts. The presence of army inspection stamps (small crowned Gothic letters) is the final arbiter; even the absence of a cypher or date is inconclusive." Well, my kS98 - which has absolutely no official inspection marks - is the two screwbolt type. And I have seen Horster kS 98's with two screwbolted wood grips as official issue (1913) for the colonial troops. The thing that really perplexed me on this one is that the one half of the one grip that survives is the checkered bakelite variety. Richie B observed (above) that bakelite grips are found on trench knives and so were in use in WW1 - but this is a Weimar/3rd Reich dress bayonet type of checkered bakelite grip, which is why I am assuming this bayonet was re-gripped at some later point in its life. Clearly (here the archaeologist in me is speaking!), these checkered bakelite grips are meant to represent the earlier Imperial leather grips of the same pattern - but when were checkered bakelite grips first used? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 23 August , 2011 Share Posted 23 August , 2011 And/or can anyone supply photographic evidence that the kS98 was worn by officers? Line-pioneer officer (left) wearing a bayonet during flamethrower training, September of 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 August , 2011 Share Posted 24 August , 2011 Here is a couple of quite nice photos that clearly show the KS98 being worn by officers (of some kind at least - my German ID is not good.!) I believe THIS first one is of a decorated airman/flying officer. Hopefully someone may be able to provide more substantial details.? And THIS next one is supposed to be a Pioneer Unteroffizier, (I think anyway) clearly showing the 'issue' KS98 bayonet with the three-rivet grip. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 24 August , 2011 Share Posted 24 August , 2011 Trajan According to Anthony Carter (German Bayonets Vol II). the Prussian war Ministry issued an order on 19th July 1915 that all regimental officers should wear the S98-05 in place of their swords. Airmen and airship personnel were allowed to wear the kS98. Richie What was the main reason for this change? Was it to make officers less noticeable, to economize on swords or to provide a useful sidearm? If the latter, wouldn`t a fighting knife or dagger have been better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 August , 2011 Share Posted 24 August , 2011 The officer's swords were found to be useless in the conditions of trench warfare, so they were ordered to replace them with just the sidearm bayonet. This more so for appearances sake than anything to be used in combat unless as an absolute last resort. The sidearm of choice was basically a dagger. You can see from the linked photo that the issue KS98 bayonet was essentially a hybrid fighting knife style dagger that could still be attached to the service rifle. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie B Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Found on Flickr Link German officer with bayonet - fitted with muzzle ring - S71-84 perhaps ? And another Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Found on Flickr Link German officer with bayonet - fitted with muzzle ring - S71-84 perhaps ? And another Link Thanks Ritchie, and, yes, the first is more like a S71-84 (in my limited knowledge!). Thanks also S>S for the earlier photographs. It IS nice to have proper documentation of officers wearing the 'non-regulation' kurzes seitengewehr. Not that I doubt Carter, it just makes me feel a bit easier! But I'm still a bit puzzled by the checkered bakelite grip(s) on my kS 98. I did see a reference on a German web-page to some kS 98's having checkered WOODEN grips, but alas and alack, no supporting reference (or photo) provided. I see no obvious reason why the option of checkered bakelite grips should not have been available for private purchase bayonets in 1915-1918: I'd just be happier if it could be confirmed - but I guess that I might be hoping for just a little too much for that! Cheers, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris1981 Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 Hi Trajan! How are you? This is a very old thread, but I think I can still add something to the material above. I have recently purchased my first issued KS98. It's an Erfurt produced model, stamped W15 and has wooden grips with two bolts. Here's some pictures compared to a private purchased KS98 model with checkered wooden (!) grips. Looks as if it has been repainted, could very well not have been. Not the differences in sawteeth and length for example, interesting! ;-) Edit: seems like I can not upload any files... bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2016 Old threads are often the best! Look forward to photographs when you can upload them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris1981 Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris1981 Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 Both have scabbards aswell, but I have no pictures. De private purchase bayonet has a repainted K98 scabbard, sadly not original. The issued 1915 Erfurt has a matching scabbard, no paint left. The marking is Fl.E.5.29 - Which I think might be Ersatz Flieger...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 August , 2016 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2016 On 7/30/2016 at 20:09, Kris1981 said: Both have scabbards aswell, but I have no pictures. De private purchase bayonet has a repainted K98 scabbard, sadly not original. The issued 1915 Erfurt has a matching scabbard, no paint left. The marking is Fl.E.5.29 - Which I think might be Ersatz Flieger...? Thanks for showing - a nice pair there! I am in UK and so away from books so I can't check the marking... I'll try to see what I can find though! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris1981 Posted 3 August , 2016 Share Posted 3 August , 2016 Thanks! I found a same marking illustrated in "Preussisch Deutsche Seitengewehre - Rüdiger", a very solid source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 4 August , 2016 Share Posted 4 August , 2016 Kris, I wonder......could your kS marking read - Fl.E.6.29. ? I ask as I have an identical example ........ Wood grips, 2 screwbolts - Erfurt - W15 - Fl.E.6.103. This is Flieger Ersatz Abteilung Nr.6. which if my memory serves me correctly was the Saxon flying school based at Grossenhain. Quite a few marked bayonets, mostly S84/98 are recorded for this unit. I have one marked Fea.6.2325. Carter and Williams list/illustrate quite a few other examples. Hope this helps. Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 August , 2016 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, Kris1981 said: Thanks! I found a same marking illustrated in "Preussisch Deutsche Seitengewehre - Rüdiger", a very solid source. Rudiger is indeed solid so no problem there. 1 hour ago, rolyboy11 said: Kris, I wonder......could your kS marking read - Fl.E.6.29. ? I ask as I have an identical example ........ Wood grips, 2 screwbolts - Erfurt - W15 - Fl.E.6.103. This is Flieger Ersatz Abteilung Nr.6. which if my memory serves me correctly was the Saxon flying school based at Grossenhain. Quite a few marked bayonets, mostly S84/98 are recorded for this unit. I have one marked Fea.6.2325. Carter and Williams list/illustrate quite a few other examples. For what it is worth, my files have the following from Noll: 3355.Fea.6, on a Kar.98AZ FI.E.6.1462.a; FI.E.6.2234a; FI.E.6.2342.a; FL.E.6.2618a: all on S.84/98's I haven't catalogued all of what's in Carter or in Williams yet - nor have I finished doing all the internet ones...!!! Trajan PS: Roly - what is the cypher and date on that last one - Fea.6.2325? Edited 4 August , 2016 by trajan Add PS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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