Michael Pegum Posted 1 January , 2011 Share Posted 1 January , 2011 This odd item is made from a brass cartridge. The outside diameter of the cartridge (not the rim) is 81mm. The bullets are 8mm, not 0.303in (but see later post: this is wrong). The badge is, presumably, from an artillery cap-badge. On the base, the visible letters are: BBC.R 7 SDE SL 16 C (edited) The questions are: what nationality is it, and what gun was it for? Michael Here are the bullets forming the legs, and the base. And the badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruilooze Posted 3 January , 2011 Share Posted 3 January , 2011 Looks like a minature coal scuttle made from a french 75 mm catridge. This is a fairly common item of trench art. Hopefully a headstamp expert will be able to say where the cartridge was manufactured Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 January , 2011 Share Posted 10 January , 2011 Looks like a minature coal scuttle made from a french 75 mm catridge. This is a fairly common item of trench art. Hopefully a headstamp expert will be able to say where the cartridge was manufactured Dave As Dave says, the shell case is a French 75mm for the M1897 field gun. However, I can't tell you the manufacturer, as that is not my area of knowledge. With regards to the bullets forming the legs, those are not French 8mm Balle D bullets. The Lebel bullet is solid copper and does not have a cannelure (groove) around the base as those do. I am fairly certain they are in fact .303 Mark VII bullets that are just a bit dirty. If so, they should have cupro-nickel envelopes (silver coloured) with a bit of a clean. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pegum Posted 10 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2011 With regards to the bullets forming the legs, those are not French 8mm Balle D bullets. The Lebel bullet is solid copper and does not have a cannelure (groove) around the base as those do. I am fairly certain they are in fact .303 Mark VII bullets that are just a bit dirty. If so, they should have cupro-nickel envelopes (silver coloured) with a bit of a clean. Regards TonyE Yes, on more careful measurement, they are 7.7mm, which is 0.303", and they do have a silver surface where clean. So, British badge (I put this thread on 'Arms' as well) and British bullets on a French cartridge. Sorted! Thanks, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 10 January , 2011 Share Posted 10 January , 2011 Are these "bullets" part of a complete round and still in at least a part of the cartridge case? They look like it. If so, then the cartridge neck doesn't look like a .303 which, I seem to recall, was crimped three times. The bullet did not have a groove at the neck. If these are the entire round, then where is the neck of the cartridge? Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 January , 2011 Share Posted 10 January , 2011 No, they are just projectiles without any part of the cartridge case being present. ...and yes, all British ball bullets had a cannelure just below the neck, that was where the three neck crimps were secured. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 10 January , 2011 Share Posted 10 January , 2011 Thanks, Tony. The memory grows as dim as the eyes. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarylW Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Wasn't sure which of the two threads about this to post on! I have an item of trench art, an ash tray fashioned out of a shell with a similar badge. I was told it was Royal Artillery by the seller (Antique Fair) Noticed a vesta case on ebay with the same badge, also described as 'Royal Artillery' What sort of shell would mine have been made out of? Read somewhere (can't remember where) that blacksmith's behind the lines often made these Caryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Wasn't sure which of the two threads about this to post on! I have an item of trench art, an ash tray fashioned out of a shell with a similar badge. I was told it was Royal Artillery by the seller (Antique Fair) Noticed a vesta case on ebay with the same badge, also described as 'Royal Artillery' What sort of shell would mine have been made out of? Read somewhere (can't remember where) that blacksmith's behind the lines often made these Caryl This looks to have been made from a WW2 Fuze cover. These covers were supplied with the fuzes for the 3.7 inch AA guns, and were commonly made into ashtrays and pin trays, often with a badge attached. Artillery being the most common in my experience. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 I have two ashtrays like yours Caryl, but mine have what I believe to be buttons on the side. These buttons have the same Royal Artillery badge. When mine are turned upside down the cones on the inside have been cut short and sealed with 1940 pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarylW Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Thank you CGM and John So it's war art but not trench art. At least I know now Back to the drawing board; thought I'd found a nice piece to start off my collection of trench art! Caryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 Caryl - it all depends. In actuality, Nick Saunders (an authority on these things), would still classify it as Trench Art, even if it wasn't made in the trenches (which is the norm), and even if it was made well after the war. So it still stands as 'Trench Art'. Your piece could still be Great War in age. As mentioned, its a fuze cover, but such covers were used in the Great war too; it all depends on the size and shape. Starting out as a cone, the cone was cut through and inverted, to make a small ash tray affair. They are pretty common, and often have a Royal Artillery badge. In your case, the badge is likely to be a senior NCO's arm badge (which had a gun, but no crown), rather than a cap badge. Hope this helps Best wishes Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarylW Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 Thanks Peter, that does indeed help! I'll view it as a start to my collection in that case. I always examine brass objects just in case but not so much around these days. I can remember years ago seeing more items of trench art, but at the time I had a distinct aversion to brass after cleaning so much of it as a child and I grew to hate the smell of Brasso! Caryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 The trouble with trench art is, you either love it or hate it. I sit on the boundary, though I have a sizable collection of trench art letter openers (for some reason; see my contribution to the thread on holdalls above); but my specimen of the coal scuttle is rather unloved, I'm afraid. Keep looking, they do turn up, but the prices are all over the place. Best Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 Caryl - it all depends. In actuality, Nick Saunders (an authority on these things), would still classify it as Trench Art, even if it wasn't made in the trenches (which is the norm), and even if it was made well after the war. So it still stands as 'Trench Art'. Your piece could still be Great War in age. As mentioned, its a fuze cover, but such covers were used in the Great war too; it all depends on the size and shape. Starting out as a cone, the cone was cut through and inverted, to make a small ash tray affair. They are pretty common, and often have a Royal Artillery badge. In your case, the badge is likely to be a senior NCO's arm badge (which had a gun, but no crown), rather than a cap badge. Hope this helps Best wishes Peter Yes it's definitely Trench Art. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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