Help with Unit Markings

[shippingsteel]

Picked up another P1903 bayonet on the cheap last night off an ebay auction. Its a bit of a roughie but has got some interesting unit markings on the pommel which have been rigorously cancelled out. The top one appears to be the original regimental, looks like it's a 2 CG which I think could indicate the Coldstream Guards.? Does the syle of stamping look familiar to anyone.?

The other abbreviated letters in the vertical position ( the WN.) looks to indicate the second unit of issue, and nothing in particular really springs to mind. Could that marking be for an OTC unit.? Are there any suggestions.? The 'rack number' ( 2497.?) does appear to be extremely high but I guess it could be a 24 and a separate number 97 which would make more sense for an OTC unit .?

Any thoughts would be appreciated .....

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

The three nearest Junior Division O.T..C units are WIN for Winchester College, WN.C for Wellington College and WN.GS for Wolverhampton Grammar School, but obviously none of these correspond exactly. Given the relatively short life of the P.'03 in regular service, I suspect you are right that it is either an O.T.C. or possibly a Territorial unit.

Of course, the various listings are nowhere near complete as we know, and armourers seem to have been adroit at inventing unit abbreviations that never made it into any of the published lists. I have copies of most of the published lists that Skennerton used for the "Broad Arrow" and there is no exact match.

Beyond that I am afraid I am of little help!

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

I have no idea either.

How about a colonial connection? Something like "Western Natal" or....?

I have a private purchase P1888 where the pommel is stamped with two letters and a number longer than the usual rack number (like this one) - when I checked the MICs one listing of that number and the initials matched with a pre war member of the yeomanry KIA in 1914....which might be coincidental or might be another possibility....

EG

Medal card of Needham, William

Corps: Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment

Regiment No: 2497

of course under usual circumstances issue items would not be named to an individual but....

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Thanks for adding your ideas gents - they have given me some more food for thought. (but as usual no definitive answers.!)

Obviously my first thought was an OTC, and I think the abbreviations of Wellington or Wolverhampton would both fit the description nicely, but that number just seems TOO large.

Can you imagine some snot-nosed junior cadets receiving some second-hand kit as hand-me-downs, from of all units - the Coldstream Guards.!!

Would certainly give cause for them to puff out their little sunken chests and start dreaming of some exotic "visions of grandeur", as future Officer material.!!

I wonder just how many of those young lads ended up dying on the battlefields in France only a few years on, steadfastly leading their troops 'over the top'. (very sad)

But the other suggestion that Chris made may also be a strong possibility, and would certainly provide another explanation for that extremely large apparent 'rack number'.

Especially so if the serviceman was found to be pre-war yeomanry and more of a part-time soldier, take home your kit, etc, as opposed to regular army where that kind of thing would not happen.

How much more of the servicemans history can be found from those records.? I am not at all familiar with the British service record system or medal cards for that matter.

From the stamped markings on the ricasso, this one appears to have been a P1888 made by Enfield in 4 '01, later converted into P1903 format and reissued again in both '06 and '07.

So at least initially it was definitely regular army before being passed on. The strange part is if it did indeed end up in use with an OTC why would those markings have needed to be cancelled out.?

Usually you would expect the OTC to become the eventual end-user, the last before the item finally becomes military surplus.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

How much more of the servicemans history can be found from those records.? I am not at all familiar with the British service record system or medal cards for that matter.

I have now managed to find the UK National Archives website and navigated my way through the search engine to bring up that MIC reference. Learn something new every day .....

To me that is simply an amazing coincidence - thanks Chris for thinking of that possibilty AND finding it for me. I'm just astounded that the answer could be that simple.?

Did another quick search of the N&D formations at the outbreak of the war, and found that 1st and 2nd Battalions were Regulars, the 3rd and 4th Battalions were Militia, while the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th were Territorial Battalions. How can I find out which Battalion this serviceman would have been part of.? Thanks again.

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

....Can you imagine some snot-nosed junior cadets receiving some second-hand kit as hand-me-downs, from of all units - the Coldstream Guards.!!

Cheers, S>S

Shipping Steel my friend, as an ex-cadet armourer I resent that description! However, as it is the time of goodwill to all men, even Australians, I forgive you.

Every cadet unit had a parent regiment, in our case it was the Royal Fusiliers. Although kit issued to O.T.C. units probably came from central depots, it might be worth checking whether the CG was the parent regiment of either of the colleges.

Cheers

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

... and armourers seem to have been adroit at inventing unit abbreviations ....

Regards

TonyE

Sure TonyE, you can never really trust those guys - especially those cadet-armourers (snot-nosed or otherwise.!!)

PS. You haven't by any chance been watching the cricket on the telly have you ....

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

Well, OK, you Aussies have recovered a little bit, but I did enjoy the last Test even more!

Cheers

TonyE

[4thGordons]

I Did another quick search of the N&D formations at the outbreak of the war, and found that 1st and 2nd Battalions were Regulars, the 3rd and 4th Battalions were Militia, while the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th were SF Territorial Battalions. How can I find out which Battalion this serviceman would have been part of.? Thanks again.

Cheers, S>S

There is at least one N&D expert on the forum they may be able to help.

Also - the MIC index seems to indicate that there are several numbers recorded (ie a pre1917 battalion number and a post 1917 unique army number) the post 1917 numbers were assigned to battalions in blocks so that should tell you which battalion he was in (at least when he was renumbered). Pre war, TF serial numbers were often followed by /[battalion number] so lots of the 4th Gordons men were XXXX/4. - this was later altered (I am not sure preceisely when)- if you can download the card itself from Ancestry or the NA then you can see if this is the case here as the number is written on the card then crossed out and a note authorizing the change is added - but you can still see of which battalion he was a member.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Also - the MIC index seems to indicate that there are several numbers recorded (ie a pre1917 battalion number and a post 1917 unique army number) the post 1917 numbers were assigned to battalions in blocks so that should tell you which battalion he was in (at least when he was renumbered).

I've been using those service numbers from the MIC index to help in tracking down which battalions he was in - interesting stuff (damn shame you have to pay to see some of those records.)

So it looks like the original number of 2497 could be a pre-war N&D Regt number (battalion unknown), then he was transferred to the East Lancs Regt, 4th Bn (TF) and then again later transferred back to the N&D Regt, 8th Bn (TF) .

Considering all that we can probably surmise that he was also a Territorial serviceman prior to the war.? I'm not sure - does that make sense to anyone.?

Would a pre-war Territorial be more likely to have his initials and regimental number stamped on the pommel of his bayonet.? Would they have looked after their own kit.? Was it purchased and supplied to them.? Lots of questions ....

EDIT. Since managed to get hold of the MIC itself and it shows he first landed France in Feb.1915 with the Notts & Derby Brigade (TF) so definitely Territorial all the way.

Cheers, S>S

[Old Tom]

May I take exception to Shippingsteels remarks about the junior division of the OTC (i.e the JTC). The members of the contingent I was a member of in 1948 or so had hankerchieves and were armed with Martine Henri carbines of older vintage. We did not carry bayonets.

Old Tom

[BRONNO]

I've been using those service numbers from the MIC index to help in tracking down which battalions he was in - interesting stuff (damn shame you have to pay to see some of those records.)

So it looks like the original number of 2497 could be a pre-war N&D Regt number (battalion unknown), then he was transferred to the East Lancs Regt, 4th Bn (TF) and then again later transferred back to the N&D Regt, 8th Bn (TF) .

EDIT. Since managed to get hold of the MIC itself and it shows he first landed France in Feb.1915 with the Notts & Derby Brigade (TF) so definitely Territorial all the way.

Cheers, S>S

There are several men who served with the N&D with the number 2497 as with Needham,

2497 Arthur Rylatt who was commissioned 2nd Lieut into the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry 29th December 1915.

2497 Francis Archibald Budd, 2/7th Btn Robin Hoods (TF).

2497 J Hydes who was at the Depot but died 23rd December 1914.

I don't know anything about bayonetts but the WN the other way up is NM, North Midlands? BRONNO.

[Andrew Upton]

I don't know anything about bayonetts but the WN the other way up is NM, North Midlands? BRONNO.

Puts the full-stop in the wrong place though if you read it that way up.

[shippingsteel]

May I take exception to Shippingsteels remarks about the junior division of the OTC (i.e the JTC). The members of the contingent I was a member of in 1948 or so had hankerchieves and were armed with Martine Henri carbines of older vintage. We did not carry bayonets.

Old Tom

My apologies to all who may have taken offence at my disparaging remarks in reference to junior OTC cadets.! I hasten to add that you should not take my comments out of context, I was obviously referring to the pre-war period of the OTC (please check the dates on the bayonet.!) . I'm quite sure that later period cadets were much more physically impressive and had extremely high levels of personal hygiene ....

Its interesting though when you look through the old photos of some of the mere boys who were in uniform during the war. In those times physical development was also restricted in many cases due to inadequate diet and poor state of overall health standards. When you see some of those young boys who were sent to the frontlines, you can only imagine what the junior OTC cadets may have been like.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

There are several men who served with the N&D with the number 2497 as with Needham,

Thanks for your interest. I'm not really sure how the numbering system worked - it sure does get confusing when you have the same number being used by the same regiment on multiple occasions. The important thing however, is that of all the 250 MIC index references to the regimental number 2497 - there is only the one that has the initials of WN. So I think its either his bayonet or just an incredible, incredible coincidence. I think it is important research though, into not only how the Territorials were being armed at the outbreak of hostilities, but also where the P1903 bayonets ended up after being replaced by the P1907 for the SMLE rifle in the Regular army.

Cheers, S>S

[msdt]

Hi,

Following up on this old post, the picture I have added to my Scots Guards post also has a very large rack number (below). So, is this in fact the rifle serial number?

Cheers,

Tony

[shippingsteel]

Hi Tony, yes I'd be a little concerned with those unit markings, hard to say but none of it sits quite right with me (probably to do with the fonts & high number)

Perhaps it is a much later period marking, possibly even WW2 ... I'm not sure. But that style is just not what I would be used to seeing on the P1907 bayonet.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Hi Tony, yes I'd be a little concerned with those unit markings, hard to say but none of it sits quite right with me (probably to do with the fonts & high number)

Perhaps it is a much later period marking, possibly even WW2 ... I'm not sure. But that style is just not what I would be used to seeing on the P1907 bayonet.

Cheers, S>S

Are you referring to the overall style or what? The '4' is the same font as yours in the OP. And we have seen so many variations in stamping here on GWF!

That aside, if you are not happy with this one ('none sits quite right right me'), then what are your thoughts now on the one in the OP? Do you think that 'WN 2497' marking is also a later period marking?

[trajan]

Some Ozzie P.1907 bayonets have four-digit numbers, but I can't think of an ozzie unit that would match the SG - SS?

[trajan]

The other abbreviated letters in the vertical position ( the WN.) looks to indicate the second unit of issue, and nothing in particular really springs to mind.

The original 2nd Batalion of the 39th (Dorsetshire) regiment was the West Norfolk regiment... Maybe some die-hard veteran refused to accept the new title and marked it for his old unit?

[msdt]

Hi S>S,

Yes, it could possibly be a WW2 mark, the Scots Guards 3rd Battalion reformed in October, 1940. No reissue marks or 'oil-hole' though:

http://www.warstuff.com/1907-PAT-Chapman-Bayonet-unit-marked-3rd-Scots-Gua-i1537548.htm

Cheers,

Tony

[trajan]

I doubt that marking is as late as WW2. Apart from missing clearance hole and lack of re-issue marks I have never seen a WW2 bayonet (i.e. a pig-sticker or an Indian job) with regimental markings. Could be immediately post ww1 though. Check with forum search as I recall an RAF marked P.1907 having been shown on GWF. Internet bad where I am right now or I would search myself.

[msdt]

Hi Trajan,

I don't know if any 1907's were stamped actually during WW2, but I believe many were stamped in the 30's before the war. Attached some pics of one of mine discussed before, note the N STAF rather than N STF. It seems that the more readable abbreviations are from the 30's. Cheers,

Tony

[msdt]

Previous post (with poorer pictures!):

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201058&hl=staf

Cheers,

Tony

[trajan]

Thanks Tony. I knew there had been something about P.1907's with post WW1 regimental markings... I remembered the RAF one but had forgotten this one of yours. So, thanks for reposting! I guess it's possible the SG marking is immediately post WW1, but no way of telling I suppose.

I am a long way from any books that might help (and internet is intermittent where I am), but off-hand I can't remember any GB equivalent of the 'Instructions for marking' as with, e.g., the German 1909 system. I would guess that there should be something somewhere, but where?