Is there such a rank as Queens Corporal?

[GBH]

I have been talking to some relations and they consistently talk about their Grandfather as being a 'Queens Corporal'.

I have looked at this individuals Army Records but cannot find indication of such a rank.

The individual concerned was promoted through the ranks to sergeant, and then de-moted again to corporal.

Can anyone throw some light on this?

Thanks

Gary

[Peter J]

Hello Gary,

Have a butcher's at THIS LINK - about a fifth of the way down under this heading: The King's Corporal (RSM William George Brain).

Cheers,

Peter.

[Muerrisch]

The army's equivalent of an urban legend, I fear. This has been looked into many times: the evidence is insubstantial and, to me, inconvincing.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I would agree with Grumpy, I have heard this said on a few occassions but have seen nothing to substantiate it.

Mick

[Staffsyeoman]

Yep, this pops up like 'the first cuckoo of spring' letters in The Times. One suspects it grew from a very well-shot line back in the days of near-antiquity.

(Ducks under the table awaiting the barrage of 'but my grandfather's cousin's brother in law was one, it says here...')

No definitive evidence exists of sufficient weight to convince me.

[Muerrisch]

I have the massive correspondence in Soldier magazine somewhere: it was inconclusive.

[squirrel]

I suppose it might refer to a Corporal in the 2nd Regiment of Foot but that's about all.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Gary

According to author Brian L Davis, there was a question in Parliament on this matter in about 1946. The War Office researched the matter and were unable to find any official documentation whatsoever in support of the existence of the rank.

It is possible that some regiments used the title (unofficially, as far as the Army was concerned) but the claim sometimes made for the rank - that only the King or Queen could reduce a holder to a lower rank - is manifestly untrue, as no such protection appears in either the Army Act or King's/Queen's Regulations.

Ron

[Terry_Reeves]

This is from Hansard referring to said subject:

HC Deb 10 October 1944 vol 403 cc1590-1W 1590W

§ Mr. Wootton-Davies

asked the Secretary of State for War the total number of King's Corporals; how many have been created during the present war; what are the rules and conditions governing the rank, together with the award and 1591W privileges; and whether he can give a list of such King's Corporals together with the reasons for the appointment in each case.

§ Sir J. Grigg

Extensive investigations have failed to disclose any factual basis for the suggestion made from time to time that there is, or has been within living memory, any such rank as King's Corporal.

TR

[CT-Guards]

Swept the Queen's Museum & served in the regiment nothing close cropped up from me. Few other Queen's titled regiments though.

[Muerrisch]

but there was an appointment of Rear-Rank Sergeant Major, with appropriate badge, within living memory.

You don't hear much about that!

And another [a bit older]: Captain-Lieutenant.

All kosher, British army.

[Ron Clifton]

Interesting, Grumpy. I would be interested to know more about the R-RSM - how long ago? In which regiments or corps? What actually was the badge?

Captain-Lieutenant was an official appointment in the eighteenth century, when Colonels of regiments (and other field officers) were ALSO Captains of companies. The colonel was too busy to administer his company himself, so the Liutenant did it for him, and was given the hybrid title. I don't think the same applied to the lieutenants of the Lt-Col's or Major's companies, though.

Terry - thanks for the Hansard extract. That was the reference I had in mind, but I couldn't lay my hands on the wording.

Ron

[Muerrisch]

Interesting, Grumpy. I would be interested to know more about the R-RSM - how long ago? In which regiments or corps? What actually was the badge?

Captain-Lieutenant was an official appointment in the eighteenth century, when Colonels of regiments (and other field officers) were ALSO Captains of companies. The colonel was too busy to administer his company himself, so the Liutenant did it for him, and was given the hybrid title. I don't think the same applied to the lieutenants of the Lt-Col's or Major's companies, though.

Terry - thanks for the Hansard extract. That was the reference I had in mind, but I couldn't lay my hands on the wording.

Ron

Happy to oblige.

In the 1920s, according to their regimental history, the Cheshire Regt [this from memory, but I can check]were accustomed to appoint a CSgt to act as understudy in the absence of the RSM, title R-RSM, badge the resurrected 4 chevrons, point up, crown over.

[truthergw]

Faintly reminiscent of a rear admiral, then.

[Ron Clifton]

So faintly as to be illegible, I would say, Tom!

Thanks Grumpy. Another little item for the oddities file.

Does anyone have a copy of the Clothing Regulations for the Army covering the 1920s? This might throw light on whether it was something peculiar to the Cheshires, or whether it was done on a wider basis. Having a designated "Sergeant-Major's Coverer" seems a fairly sensible idea.

Ron

[Muerrisch]

So faintly as to be illegible, I would say, Tom!

Thanks Grumpy. Another little item for the oddities file.

Does anyone have a copy of the Clothing Regulations for the Army covering the 1920s? This might throw light on whether it was something peculiar to the Cheshires, or whether it was done on a wider basis. Having a designated "Sergeant-Major's Coverer" seems a fairly sensible idea.

Ron

Ron, remind me in a few days time and I will dig out the regimental reference and scan for you.

In the context of the history I gathered it was a regimental peculiarity.

[Moonraker]

I'm corresponding with a new member about his grandfather whose WWI service record includes official correspondence concerning his apparent appointment as a King's Corporal in the Boer War. The grandfather appears to have thought he was a King's Corporal, but the official reply doesn't directly confirm this.

I'll bring this thread to his attention and suggest he might like to post the details.

I'm assuming that Gary's OP post above about Queen's Corporal doesn't preclude us discussing the existence of King's Corporal - presumably the two ranks were the same.

Moonraker

[bushfighter]

General Sir Reginald Wingate, Bt, GCB, etc in his foreword to "People of The Book" by Major A.J. Pott DCM (an excellent source for the campaign in Darfur against Ali Dinar) states on page ix:

"He was promoted to Queen's Sergeant on the field for his bravery in saving the life of a wounded officer; . . ."

This refers to an incident in the South African War when Potts was serving in the Royal Scots Greys.

Harry

[Moonraker]

Judging from some of the posts above, the promotion seems to have been a feature of the Boer War - and perhaps peculiar to it?

Moonraker

[Blackblue]

Doesn't a Queens Corporal refers to one who was a Private for a extended period and was appointed to Corporal only on the basis of time in service as opposed to the normal promotion system....so no courses and wanted no more than to be a soldier....but was eventually promoted. I remember in a unit I was in (Australian Army) there was a Corporal who was apparently one. Inline with the below....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?119897-What-is-a-Queens-Corporal

Rgds

Tim

[Ed Kermode]

Moonraker wrote:

"I'm corresponding with a new member about his grandfather whose WWI service record includes official correspondence concerning his apparent appointment as a King's Corporal in the Boer War. The grandfather appears to have thought he was a King's Corporal, but the official reply doesn't directly confirm this.

I'll bring this thread to his attention and suggest he might like to post the details.

I'm assuming that Gary's OP post above about Queen's Corporal doesn't preclude us discussing the existence of King's Corporal - presumably the two ranks were the same.

Moonraker"

Ed K writes:

here is a link to the correspondence my grandfather Thomas Kermode sought as proof in a pay dispute while in 8th Traning Bn, after he was demoted from acting Sergeant to Private for a technical breach (failure to submit written report at end of shift as Sergeant of the Guard or some such). Thomas's pay book did not mention that he was a King's Corporal from the Boer War. He was (I believe, without looking it up again on his record, if in fact it shows it) reinstated to Sergeant, that was what shows as his rank on discharge. Thomas thought he should at least be paid as Corporal. I have not read all of this thread but thought I would do as Moonraker suggests and put it up for those interested to read. Ed K

http://users.picknow...3/_sgg/m1_1.htm Please let me know if this link doesn't work.

Second to last para of letter reads "Promoted Corporal by Commander in Chief". As a matter of interest, though it is Boer War, does anybody know who the Commander in Chief actually was? Ed K

Edited 13 December , 2010 by EdK

[Piorun]

Doesn't a Queens Corporal refers to one who was a Private for a extended period and was appointed to Corporal only on the basis of time in service as opposed to the normal promotion system....so no courses and wanted no more than to be a soldier....but was eventually promoted. I remember in a unit I was in (Australian Army) there was a Corporal who was apparently one. Inline with the below....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?119897-What-is-a-Queens-Corporal

Rgds

Tim

Sounds like a Colonial thing