Prayers before battle

[Mike Donoghue]

Is it possible someone could help me with finding some examples of prayers soldiers would have taken part in before going off to war or into battle. My grandfather was in an Irish Catholic regiment. So far I haven't been able to find anything appropriate on the web but I will keep looking. I was hoping to find something that stood out as being more popular at the time. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Mike

[CarylW]

Mike

This Classic thread might be of interest to you "The last absolution of the Munsters"

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=36423

Caryl

[Michelle Young]

I have read accounts where this prayer dating from the English Civil War was used.

“Oh Lord, thou knowest how busy I must be this day.

If I forget thee, do not thou forget me.

March on boys!”

Sir Jacob Astley's prayer before the battle of Edgehill

Michelle

[Mike Donoghue]

Thank you Caryl and Michele for your suggestions. I have seen that classic thread before Caryl but thank you for linking me to it again. I wish it were possible to read the text of Father Gleeson's blessing. My grandfather was in the Munsters but taken POW long before that day was captured on canvass. I think I will order a copy. I have The 2nd Munsters in France written by Lieutenant-Colonel H.S. Jervis, published by Schull Books. That wonderful painting is on the front cover. There is no reference to his prayer but, I found the following quote very fitting, it's dated May 2 1915: "At this time the Munsters were fortunate in having as their priest the Rev. Father Gleeson. He did not believe in admisistering spiritual consolation in safety and comfort five miles behind the line. He brought the Holy Sacrament up to the firing line and many a good Catholic of Munster has gone into battle fortified by Father Gleeson's cheering words a few minutes before the action." Also, "He spent the whole four days carrying out his holy office in the front lines within 150 yards of the enemy. Such was the priest who was in spiritual charge of the Battalion at the Rue du Bois."

Fortunate souls they were to have him.

If I find any other prayers or blessings I will follow up with them. Until then, any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

[CarylW]

Mike wrote> "I wish it were possible to read the text of Father Gleeson's blessing"

Interesting subject Mike

I'd be interested to hear if Father Gleeson did add anything in his own words Would he have had time

According to Liam in the "Last Absolution of the Munsters" thread "From Orange, Green and Khaki -

"The chaplain raised his right hand and intoned general absolution and all sang the Te Deum. Then, to the barked command of RSM Ring, the march resumed towards the sound of the guns."

According to this site http://www.wf-f.org/...on-Penance.html

"Structure of Confession/ Absolution Rite

The normal practice for administration of the Sacrament of Penance is in private -- with only the penitent and the priest present. On occasion, as during penitential seasons, a parish may hold a "communal penance service", where the congregation may pray and reflect together with the priest before each person individually goes to confession. (Only in extreme cases of emergency, such as on a battlefield, may a priest give "general absolution" to all at the same time; and that with the stipulation that the individual penitents go to confession individually as soon as possible.)"

"Prayer of Absolution

God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son

has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us

for the forgiveness of sins;

Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,

and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Maybe after saying that and all singing the Te Deum (if they sang all of it and it is lengthy) would Father Gleeson have had time to add any of his own words?

Caryl

[Broznitsky]

If I find any other prayers or blessings I will follow up with them. Until then, any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Mike, I will follow this thread with interest. If you haven't already, you might want to do a little light research on Donald Hankey, for some interesting thoughts on Man in War.

Peter in B.C.

[Audax]

Interesting print of the Irish Guards kneeling in prayer

[centurion]

The Russian version.

I have seen similar photos but with priests or monks holding an ikon and giving the blessing. I don't know if a blessing from HIM conferred greater protection or not (or perhaps it was supposed to kick in after you were killed to provide better treatment at the celestial immigration desk)

[kenf48]

I think the idea of 'prayers before battle' as depicted in, for example, 'The Absolution of the Munsters' is atypical and a romantic notion, intended for the Home Front. There was much to do to prepare for battle and while Chaplains may have been in the front line, in harm's way with all due respect to their courage and individual acts of heroism it is self evident they were essentially non-combatants.

During major offensives they were usually located at dressing stations to minister to the wounded, and conduct funeral ceremonies.

Generally, services were organised in the normal way on Sundays, Communion and Confession were also offered to individuals.

The Bickersteth Diaries records that on the Sunday before the Somme offensive (the following Saturday) many services were conducted all along the Line. The artillery barrage had already begun and the diarist records;

"The chaplains were told to be ready for anything. The services on the 25th June, in barns or in the open air, were non-stop from 7a.m..."

In an account of one of these services Julian Bickersteth (who won the MC) describes how German aircraft bombed an adjacent field and although he preferred to have the men seated, "the Colonel who was standing ten yards away from me, whispered he could have no movement of any kind from the men..." (The principle being that if the troops stood still they would not be seen by the aircraft.) Despite the noise and disruption he claims to have held their attention, "especially during the Blessing when he told them as God's minister he was to bless them in His name and ask for God's protection in 'the great endeavour'."

He goes on to say, "Every man there knew that it might well be his last service on earth, and although the note struck was one of 'Joy', joy in self-sacrifice, in showing forth love which Christ himself showed on the Cross, a joy in which we are called upon to join with Him, that 'Love casting out fear', might be ours, yet there was no mistaking the solemnity of the occasion."

Interestingly, the caption to the picture of the Irish Guards kneeling at "silent" prayer posted above says they too 'rushed to their work with joy on their faces', it seems 'joy' was a common (and safe) theme.

The Diaries make no reference to specific prayers but often refer to the normal practice of religious devotion, and duties of ministers. For example elsewhere there is a description of a cellar used as a Chapel where each Sunday services were held for Catholics, Wesleyan Methodists and C of E. As well as Sunday Services there were regular Church Parades, and Communion was held after these parades.

Ken

[David B]

What did the non believers do in those days, there must have been a few at least. Did they fall out or just join in and look dumb. I know that in my day (post WW2) you were either

Protestant or RC, there was no room for any other.

David

[kenf48]

Wrong war, but 'There are no atheists in a foxhole' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes

Seriously, an interesting review here

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Cross+and+the+Trenches%3A+Religious+Faith+and+Doubt+Among+British...-a0128027055

The diaries record that for many soldiers Church Parades was their first contact with religious faith, and by 1918 Julian is showing some evangelical zeal to encourage them to become communicants.

Ken

[Michael Johnson]

What did the non believers do in those days, there must have been a few at least. Did they fall out or just join in and look dumb. I know that in my day (post WW2) you were either

Protestant or RC, there was no room for any other.

David

The old joke is: "Church Parade. Church of England, fall out right; Roman Catholics, fall out left; dissenters stand fast for work detail."

[centurion]

What did the non believers do in those days, there must have been a few at least. Did they fall out or just join in and look dumb. I know that in my day (post WW2) you were either

Protestant or RC, there was no room for any other.

David

There is the old story of the soldiers who tried it on whilst groups of soldiers were being marched off in various directions and stayed loafing at the side of the parade ground.

Sergeant "What are you lot then"

Spokesman "Oh we're agnostics sarge"

Sergeant "Agnostics! same as C of E get fell in"

[centurion]

This extract from a site called Hellfire Corner may be relevant

The account of Private Frederick Lewis, Royal Warwickshire Regiment (1910-1919), Army number: 1713. Interviewed in December 1984, by Tom Oates.

I never saw anybody praying. There was no religious services in the trenches. I know that there was some behind the lines, but not in the Front line - it would have almost been a mockery.

Bear in mind however it's one 90 year old man's memory

[centurion]

And another Russian one

[SiegeGunner]

This extract from a site called Hellfire Corner may be relevant

And whose website might that be, pray ...?

[salesie]

No atheists in foxholes? War increases religious feelings in those fighting it?

Here's a link to a thread, detailing and debating the thoughts of a front line soldier who disagreed with the above statements - written in the midst of WW1, in January 1916, not several decades later (though in agreement with the 90 year-old quoted earlier).

In it he writes, "Just one more thought as the preachers say. I have heard of the spread of religious thought and feeling among our men fighting in the trenches. I have looked for it in vain. I do not believe that it exists. Men here live hard, curse hard, and die hard. I have seen many going out on the Long Trail, torn and bleeding by bullet or shell but they spoke no word of religion. Some of the things they say are unwritable. Yet they are splendid fellows, men who have been for months face to face with the dark realism of war, men free from hypocrisy and cant, and if they die cursing they die game, game to the last. I must confess that I like the cursing sorts, the virile, devil-may-care type best.

Occasionally among the scores of letters I have to censor every day, I come across one from the praying type. They are generally unpleasant reading with their selfish, cowardly egotism and fear of death. I trust the dear Lord will bring me safely through, preserve my life, guard me against danger, etc, is the burden of their supplications. Their one obsession seems to be the safety of their own paltry skins. If Christianity can do no more than this for men then Christianity has failed."

Read the full text and the debate which followed here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113525

Cheers-salesie.

[centurion]

And whose website might that be, pray ...?

Dunno - do enlighten us

[David B]

Interesting observations. I was always under the impression that in GW days religion was still fairly strong - I know my g/father never missed his church, and imagined that much

the same thing would be fairly general. How wrong one can be.

David

[centurion]

David

I don't think you are necessarily wrong - the main evidence quoted is all based on one man's observations and various members comments on it. I suspect the whole picture is much less clear cut and we'd need much more evidence to come down either way.

[centurion]

The following quote from William Coningsby Dawson - an officer in the Canadian Artillery may cast an interesting light.

With me, before I went to the Front, prayer was a habit. Out there I lost the habit; what one was doing seemed sufficient. I got the feeling that I might

be meeting God at any moment, so I didn't need to be worrying Him all the time, hanging on to a spiritual telephone and feeling slighted if He didn't answer me directly I rang Him up. If God was really interested in me, He didn't need constant reminding. When He had a world to manage, it seemed best not to interrupt Him with frivolous petitions, but to put my prayers into my work. That's how we all feel out there.

[SiegeGunner]

Dunno - do enlighten us

Forum pal Tom Morgan

[Audax]

Padre Pat Leonard of the 8th King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, 76th Brigade, 3rd Division, at Bronfay Farm,Les Celestins Wood; organised Services of preparation and commendation, on hearing on July 8th 1916 that that they were to move up to take part in heavy fighting on the Somme. (The Fighting Padre (2010; Pen & Sword)page 89.

A

[Audax]

RFA 10th (Irish Division) at their camp near Basingstoke.

[centurion]

A French/American viewpoint by Henry Sheahan an American volunteer in the French Army who published A Volunteer Poilu in 1916 after his experiences at Verdun

The most interesting question of the whole business is, "How do the soldiers stand it?" At the beginning of my own service, I thought Pont-à-Mousson, with its ruins, its danger, and its darkness, the most awful place on the face of the earth. After a little while, I grew accustomed to the décor, and when the time came for me to leave it, I went with as much regret as if I were leaving the friendliest, most peaceful of towns. First the décor, growing familiar, lost the keener edges of its horror, and then the life of the front --- the violence, the destruction, the dying and the dead --- all became casual, part of the day's work. A human being is profoundly affected by those about him; thus, when a new soldier finds himself for the first time in a trench, he is sustained by the attitude of the veterans. Violence becomes the commonplace; shells, gases, and flames are the things that life is made of. The war is another lesson in the power of the species to adapt itself to circumstances. When this power of adaptability has been reinforced by a tenacious national will "to see the thing through," men will stand hell itself. The slow, dogged determination of the British cannot be more powerful than the resolution of the French. Their decision to continue at all costs has been reached by a purely intellectual process, and to enforce it, they have called upon those ancient foundations of the French character, the sober reasonableness and unbending will they inherit from Rome.

And a new religion has risen in the trenches, a faith much more akin to Mahomet than to Christ. It is a fatalism of action. The soldier finds his salvation in the belief that nothing will happen to him until his hour comes, and the logical corollary of this belief, that it does no good to worry, is his rock of ages. It is a curious thing to see poilus --- peasants, artisans, scholars --- completely in the grip of this philosophy. There has been a certain return to the Church of Rome, for which several reasons exist, the greatest being that the war has made men turn to spiritual things. Only an animal could be confronted with the pageant of heroism, the glory of sacrifice, and the presence of Death, and not be moved to a contemplation of the fountain-head of these sublime mysteries. But it is the upper class which in particular has returned to the Church. Before the war, rationalist and genial skeptic, the educated Frenchman went to church because it was the thing to do, and because non-attendance would weaken an institution which the world was by no means ready to lay aside. This same educated Frenchman, brought face to face with the mystery of human existence, has felt a real need of spiritual support, and consequently returned to the Church of his fathers. The religious revival is a return of upper-class prodigals to the fold, and a rekindling of the chilled brands of the faith of the amiably skeptical. The great mass of the nation has felt this spiritual force, but because the mass of the nation was always Catholic, nothing much has changed. I failed to find any trace of conversions among the still hostile working men of the towns, and the bred-in-the-bone Socialists. The rallying of the conservative classes about the Cross is also due to the fact that the war has exposed the mediocrity and sterile windiness of the old socialistic governments; this misgovernment the upper classes have determined to end once they return from the trenches, and remembering that the Church of Rome was the enemy of the past administrations, cannot help regarding her with a certain friendliness. But this issue of past misgovernment will be fought out on purely secular grounds, and the Church will be only a sympathizer behind the fray. The manner in which the French priests have fought and died is worthy of the admiration of the world. Never in the history of any country has the national religion been so closely enmeshed in the national life. The older clergy, as a rule, have been affected to the medical services of the front, serving as hospital orderlies and stretcher-bearers, but the younger priests have been put right into the army and are fighting to-day as common soldiers. There are hundreds of officer-priests --- captains and lieutenants of the regular army.