Gunner Bailey Posted 24 June , 2010 Share Posted 24 June , 2010 I've just bought a 1898/02 German bayonet and think the marks on the top edge may be regiment marks. The bayonet was made by VC Schilling. If anyone can identify the marks I'd be grateful John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 June , 2010 Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Rather out of my area of knowledge but I always thought that this was the location that many German bayonets were date stamped, so my interpretation of the 05 would have been 1905 for the date. The other mark (Crown BR ?) might be a Bavarian proof/inspection stamp..... or is it GR?...I still lean towards an inspection mark rather than a regimental mark My best, moderately informed, guess. I am sure someone with greater expertise will be along in a mo'. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 24 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Hi Chris It's a non British Crown with GR under. 05 I assume is the year of production and there is another smaller crest lower down. The GR threw me! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 24 June , 2010 Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Hi John, I am sure your question will be answered in this forum http://feldgrau.pytalhost.com/vbulletin/index.php Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 June , 2010 Share Posted 24 June , 2010 I've just bought a 1898/02 German bayonet and think the marks on the top edge may be regiment marks. The bayonet was made by VC Schilling. John Not regimental but issue and inspection marks. The top mark (Crown over script GR) is the royal cypher mark for Saxony, the particular monarch was Georg. The 05 is the date of manufacture and/or issue ie. 1905. The bottom mark is a "fractur" or inspection mark. Nice 98/02's are a VERY desirable (and expensive) item. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 24 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Incredibly this was a WW2 souvenir. The soldier who brought it home was wounded in the thigh by it in N Africa, he then killed the owner and brought the bayonet back. The wound was so bad he was invalided out of the army soon after. His son who sold it to me said it was a very ugly scar. I can only assume the German soldier took his fathers bayonet to war, in the same way Japanese officers took family swords. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 June , 2010 Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Incredibly this was a WW2 souvenir. The soldier who brought it home was wounded in the thigh by it in N Africa, he then killed the owner and brought the bayonet back. The wound was so bad he was invalided out of the army soon after. His son who sold it to me said it was a very ugly scar. I can only assume the German soldier took his fathers bayonet to war, in the same way Japanese officers took family swords. John There might be another slightly less "romantic" explanation than "taking his father's bayonet to war", which is simply that the bayonet remained in service. A large number of the Pattern 07 bayonets that remained in service in WWII were undoubtedly of WWI origin so this may be (and admittedly somewhat extreme 1905-45) example of the same thing. A bayonet from an earlier time still in service. The attachment mechanism for the Mauser 98 variants (Gew98, Kar98a, 98k etc) means that many of the many and various bayonet types are largely interchangeable. This might be particularly the case in North Africa where the supply of equipment was more difficult and sometimes given lower priority...so what was on hand was used. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 24 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2010 I also bought the 07 that belonged to the soldier as well. It was a WW1 vintage Wilkinson with a 38 reissue date. It's odd owning two bayonets tied to the same story. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 24 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Not regimental but issue and inspection marks. The top mark (Crown over script GR) is the royal cypher mark for Saxony, the particular monarch was Georg. The 05 is the date of manufacture and/or issue ie. 1905. The bottom mark is a "fractur" or inspection mark. Nice 98/02's are a VERY desirable (and expensive) item. Cheers, S>S Thanks very much for the information. It's all fitting together now. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 24 June , 2010 Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Hi, th last 98/02 I saw, they asked 1.250 Euros for. Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 24 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Hi, th last 98/02 I saw, they asked 1.250 Euros for. Cnock Yes they must be rare. I've found two that sold in the US for over $1400. The World Bayonets book listed them at £275 at the start of the 1990's. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andswagger Posted 24 June , 2010 Share Posted 24 June , 2010 Hello Gents, I am brand new to this site and the reason I joined was to try and get some information on the rarity and value of just such a bayonet. I have a small collection of bayonets and militaria including a deac 1918 BSA SMLE Mk lll* and a No4 Long branch from 1943, I have thinned out quite a bit of the collection recently in order to concentrate mainly on cap badges and items connected to the Rifle Brigade in which my Grandad served 36 years and also RE which is my own corps. The bayonet I mentioned above is a M1898 a.A 1902 first pattern with the one piece grip made by Erfurt, it came in to my possession very recently and as my collection is mainly British I was going to try and offer it for sale on Ebay which is why I have been trying to find out about the rarity and value. unfortunately this is no longer allowed. I can give a full description and I have photos if anyone would like to see them, and I am open to offers on the item. I hope in future to be a regular visitor now I have found this very informative site and look forward to gaining a deeper insight to the first world war from the mine of information that is evident here. Kind Regards Charlie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 June , 2010 Share Posted 25 June , 2010 I also bought the 07 that belonged to the soldier as well. It was a WW1 vintage Wilkinson with a 38 reissue date. It's odd owning two bayonets tied to the same story. John Thats very interesting about the '38 reissue date on the P1907. You wouldn't be able to post a closeup shot of that ricasso would you.?? I would really like to see it as I didn't realise that they were still stamping reissues on them at that late a date. Thanks John. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Charlie There is a for sale and 'wants' section n the forum. THat is where you should list things for sale. Not in threads. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andswagger Posted 25 June , 2010 Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Sincere apologies John, it was genuinely info as to the rarity and value of the bayonet I was after, got a bit carried away I'm afraid when I saw the other posts. yes I have now found the section you refer to but gather I will need to make more posts before I can use this feature. I would appreciate any advice you can offer with regard to this. I haven't just come here to tout items for sale so please be assured that as time allows I fully intend to contribute relevant posts in the future. sorry once again and I look forward to an enjoyable experience using the site as I become more familiar with it and find my way around. Kind regards charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Welcome to the forum Charlie. It's a great place with some very generous people who share their knowledge freely. You can learn something every day here. I do. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Thats very interesting about the '38 reissue date on the P1907. You wouldn't be able to post a closeup shot of that ricasso would you.?? I would really like to see it as I didn't realise that they were still stamping reissues on them at that late a date. Thanks John. Cheers, S>S Here we go. The 38 date seems to be a different depth of imprint to the rest of the marks, with 5 16 stamped over the makers name. So my guess is a 1916 bayonet reissued for WW2. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 25 June , 2010 Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Charlie, link posted for you on the BMBF, you have a 1898 1st type bayonet, not the 1898/2 which is rare. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2010 For clarity, this is what the 98/02 looks like. Note that the blade is parallel not of the 'normal' butcher shape. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 June , 2010 Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Here we go. The 38 date seems to be a different depth of imprint to the rest of the marks, with 5 16 stamped over the makers name. So my guess is a 1916 bayonet reissued for WW2. John Thanks for the extra photos John. Its definitely the '38 date stamp and looks like the corresponding inspection mark placed directly below it (Crown over X7 etc) Its a bit unusual to find the reissue mark placed on that ricasso, normally they are on the other side above the original inspection marks. Its a Wilkinson made Pall Mall variety, looks to me to be dated 5 '18 (under the zoom) Anything look out of place on the other side.? Thanks again for posting. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Thanks for the extra photos John. Its definitely the '38 date stamp and looks like the corresponding inspection mark placed directly below it (Crown over X7 etc) Its a bit unusual to find the reissue mark placed on that ricasso, normally they are on the other side above the original inspection marks. Its a Wilkinson made Pall Mall variety, looks to me to be dated 5 '18 (under the zoom) Anything look out of place on the other side.? Thanks again for posting. Cheers, S>S The other side is fairly plain. Two inspection marks a bend test and another 38. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 25 June , 2010 Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Here we go. The 38 date seems to be a different depth of imprint to the rest of the marks, with 5 16 stamped over the makers name. So my guess is a 1916 bayonet reissued for WW2. John John... that's an '18'.. not a '16', (it's quite plain.. no need for magnification) and contrary to the information already given..... it's not all that uncommon for the reissue date stamp to be on the left ricasso for a number of reasons, especially if there are several on the right ricasso. Basically you have a standard Wilkinson Pall Mall taken into service in May of 1918, with a final reissue date of 1938. The fact that there are two '38' stampings... gives you the reason why there is one for each ricasso. This example has been taken out of service for some form or refurbishment twice in the same year, or forwarded to two separate establishments during the same refurbishment withdrawl. So, in order not to confuse, the last inspector has stamped on the opposite side. During the latter part of WW1 Wilkinson started marking their '07's on a 50/50 basis of Wilkinson and Wilkinson Pall Mall, with the latter being the more desireable. For WW2, this company's blades were marked as W.S.C. and also had the company location code of S294 = Southern Company 294. Date stampings were as WW1, as were all other ricasso stampings. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Thanks Seph. I'm really pleased I bought this pair of bayonets. I've learnt a lot. Yes I agree it's 18. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 25 June , 2010 Share Posted 25 June , 2010 Very pleased that you have learned a little about your two bayonets John. I've said it many times, but there is no harm mentioning it again..... we are all on an upwards learning curve, no matter what our expertise. However, in our research, we have to curb the need to search for the romantic... and study the obvious. You've two very nice examples of their marks there John. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 26 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2010 Very pleased that you have learned a little about your two bayonets John. I've said it many times, but there is no harm mentioning it again..... we are all on an upwards learning curve, no matter what our expertise. However, in our research, we have to curb the need to search for the romantic... and study the obvious. You've two very nice examples of their marks there John. Seph Seph I'm not sure what you mean by the 'romantic' but I have found that almost every piece of militaria has a story. Some boring some very interesting. If I just regarded each item as a piece of metal that was produced by X company on y date I'd give up and become a scrap dealer. One of the joys of my shop is the veterans who come in and talk about their service to their country. The last thing I'd do is curb that. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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