Empire troops in British regiments, how common?

[bsears]

I came across with picture as I have been researching my home town of Harwich in WW1 for a school project.

This picture was taken just outside the town, of the Essex Regiment in 1916. They look to be out on entrenching exercises.

So I can prepare some more in depth information for pupils, how common was it to have ranks from the West Indies, India in British Regiments

Thanks

Barrie

[Tartan_Terrier]

I'd say that it's by no means unknown (as your photo proves), but probably not all that common either, as large scale immigration from the West Indies didn't really start till the late '40s and '50s.

[Heid the Ba]

I've never heard of Indian soldiers in a British regiment (though no doubt someone will have examples), the main problems would be religious or dietary. Also as pointed out there weren't very many immigrants from there in the UK before the Great War. Indians in India would join an Indian Army regiment.

Edit: typo.

[Michael Johnson]

A number of Indians in Canada joined the CEF. Some had served in the Indian Army.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Because of the closness of Empire many aussies served in the British Army, as they still do today.

S.B

[Nigel Marshall]

Pte Jogendra Nath Sen served with the Leeds Pals (15th West Yorkshire Regiment). He was a student at Leeds University reading for an advanced degree. It is said that he was probably the best educated man in the battalion. He was from Bengal.

Photo from http://www.leeds-pals.com/

Lyn MacDonald wrote about a group of South Africans who sailed to England to join the (13th?) Rifle Brigade.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Heid the Ba]

I knew there would be a few from the Subcontinent, thanks Nigel.

I looked at CWGC in a not very scientific manner and turned up no-one with the surnames Chopra, Sharma, Malik, Gupta, Kapoor, Kapur, Singh, Akram, Patel, Dev, Mohammed, Chatterjee or Bose on the Debt of Honour list as having served with the UK forces. There was one Shah (Gunner W Shah RFA dod 27/5/20). There are of course dozens who served with the Indian Army etc. This suggests that there weren't many Indians in the British Army but proves precisely nothing.*

I checked for Private Sen and he was killed on 22nd May 1916 and is buried at Sucrerie Cemetery. It is odd that I can be affected by the death of a man I didn't know existed an hour ago.

*This was a list of common Indian surnames I found on the web, and my search skills are sub-optimal.

[Nigel Marshall]

The few items that I have read about 'John' Sen, as he was known, give the impression that he was very well liked by all ranks and that his death was keenly felt throughout the battalion. I don't get the impression that he was seen as a curiosity, just as a decent man who was a 'Pal'.

Cheers,

Nigel

[nigelfe]

Generally speaking Britons residing in Australia, Canada, etc, joined the AIF, etc. Similarly Australians, Canadians, etc, residing in Britain joined the British forces. Civilians residing in colonies probably joined what local forces there were, with the obvious exception of those in India because the Indian Army was careful about selecting officers. However, I think there was an Indian TF mostly comprising expatriates.

That said I've heard of an Australian who shipped himself to UK in order to enlist in the DLI.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Some aussies in the British Army

AINSLIE Archibald 61 Pte British Army RAMC prom 2/Lt 1/4Bn KOSB (155 Bde 52 Lowland Div) killed at 2nd Gaza buried Jerusalem War Cemetery Palestine brother Jonathan Capt KOSB KIA

ALGAR Albert Charles 330039 2/AM British Army to 47 Sqn RFC/RAF died in Egypt

BOOR Alaric Pinder Lt British Army 7Bn Ox and Bucks Light Infantry to 113 Sqn RFC (pilot) RE 8 died with Lt JH Miller in flying accident in Palestine born 1892 on Rhodes Scholarship in Oxford UK at start of war buried Beersheba War Cemetery Palestine

BROWNE John Gilbert Maj British Army 14th Hussars to HQ 2 Div F&B to LtCol GSO (1) AMD DSO MID to Col GSO (1) Chaytor Force later BrigGen CMG CBE (Boer War 14th (King's) Hussars)

BRUCE Alexander S/17358 Pte British Army to 1Bn Seaforth Highlanders buried Ramleh War Cemetery Palestine

BURY George Wyman Lt British Navy RNVR to HMS Egmont off Egypt Naturist and Arabian explorer

CALVER Frederick 242951 Pte British Army to 5Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers died Palestine

CAMERON Hugh Alexander Lt British Army to 5Bn Hamp Regt died Palestine

DANGAR Clive Collingwood Capt British Army Ex 13th Hussars to 12 Res Cav Regt as Staff officer to Bde Maj 3 LH Bde HQ WIA 19-4-17 R/groin at 2nd Gaza to GSO (2) Anzac MD HQ MC MID reported DoW died in Australia buried Waverley Cemetery NSW (Boer War Lt 13th Hussars)

EDMONDSTONE Norman Stuart Lt British Army to 2/16Bn London Regt Queens Westminsters Rifles died Palestine buried Beersheba War Cemtery Palestine

HOLDSWORTH Albert 200798 Pte British Army 1/4Bn Royal Scots died Palestine

JARVIS Arthur Ernest 22305 Pte British Army 2Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers died of burns buried Cairo War Cemetery Egypt

LANDALE George Capt British Army 3rd (King's Own) Hussars RofO att ADC to Col Hughes (CMF) rtn UK to Maj Labour Corps F&B

LIDDICOAT Arthur Thomas 301050 Pte British Army 1/7Bn Essex Regt killed at 1st Gaza buried Deir El Belah War Cemetery Palestine

S.B

[nigelfe]

Lt Milo Massy Cudmore MC RFA. KIA 1916 age 28, of Victor Harbour SA

[SiegeGunner]

Most sea ports had a community of foreign seamen, past and present, and their descendants. The men seem to be in their 20s/early 30s and are perhaps West Africans rather than West Indians. The Local Studies centre in Harwich (if there is one) will perhaps be able to help.

[Raster Scanning]

Waller, Aubrey William Kimpton. Pte. 49092.

This man was an Australian (Queensland) serving with the 7th Beds Regiment when killed.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

This Classic Thread may be of interest:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p;#entry1396642

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Generally speaking Britons residing in Australia, Canada, etc, joined the AIF, etc. Similarly Australians, Canadians, etc, residing in Britain joined the British forces...

There were British units that were the exception to this, for example the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service. Canadians, for example were discharged from the Canadian services to join these units. These air units had British Subjects from several colonies and dominions serving in them, including black and Indian pilots.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Indra Lal Roy, from India, was a commissioned officer in the Army (RFC) and RAF. Water Tull, one of the Black British commissioned army officers has been the subject of many threads on the forum.

Blacks in Britian did not only come from the West Indies, they could also come from Africa and (what is now) Canada. The first Black British Subject to be awarded the Victoria Cross (for deeds in 1857) was from Nova Scotia.

I recommend looking through BT 350 (mercantile matine records), which have photos of many non white seamen.

[Dolphin]

Two men who played Rugby for Australia served in the British Army.

Corfe, Arthur Cecil DSO** CdeG played for Australia

Internationals: 1 : 1899 GB -

Arthur Corfe was born on 12 December 1877, in Christchurch, New Zealand.

Played as a Forward for: Christ’s College, Toowoomba Grammar School, Past Grammars, Queensland. Played for Queensland v NSW in 1898 and 1899, and v Great Britain in 1899.

Profession: The Army

Remarks: Served in the South African War as 119 Private in the 3rd Queensland Mounted Infantry Contingent, and later as adjutant to the 10th New Zealand Contingent. His brother Duncan Corfe played for Sydney University and for NSW v Queensland in 1901.

War service: Major, South African Defence Force. Temporary Lieutenant Colonel, Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment; awarded DSO and two bars, and Croix de Guerre. He was wounded twice. On 23 March 1918 he was taken prisoner, being repatriated on 18 December 1918. DSO Gazetted 4 June 1917.

The citation for the first bar to his DSO in the Gazette of 9 January 1918: “For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty when in command of his battalion. By the prompt and skilful measures which he took on encountering serious opposition, he was able to attain his objective, and by his personal example and cheerfulness the moral of his men was maintained during a very trying period and under most adverse weather conditions.”

The citation for his second bar was in the Gazette of 19 March 1918: “For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty when in command of his battalion during an attack. The assaulting troops in front were checked by heavy rifle fire from a strong point. He at once went forward, and by his inspiring presence and personal leadership reduced the strong point and killed the occupants. He was severely wounded, but continued to advance until exhausted from loss of blood. His splendid example was of the highest value at a critical moment.” This action near Zandvoorde during the Third Battle of Ypres on 20 September 1917 is described by Sapper Albert Martin, 41st Signal Company, Royal Engineers: “The Hants could get no further. They had lost all their officers and a great many men. Colonel Corfe of the Kents tried to rally the men but was soon hit by a bullet in the shoulder, but he held on until the post had been outflanked. Then he collapsed.”

He died on 30 July 1949, in England

Hughes, Bryan Desmond MC played for Australia

Internationals: 2 : 1913 NZ- NZ+ (2c)

Bryan Hughes was born in Sydney in 1887, son of Mr & Mrs John Hughes MLC.

Played as a Prop/hooker for North Sydney, NSW. An outstanding goal kicker, he converted two goals in Australia’s 1913 victory over New Zealand. Brother of James Hughes (2 caps for Australia in 1907). He played for NSW 3 times.

Profession: Clerk

War Service: Captain, 1st Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, 86th Brigade, 29th Division. Temporary Second Lieutenant, 8th Battalion, 48th Brigade, 16th (Irish) Division, in 1916. MC Gazetted 24 June 1916: “For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Though severely wounded, he organised the battalion bombers and led them against the enemy, who had penetrated a portion of the front line. It was largely owing to his personal example and good leadership that the enemy were driven out.”

He was killed in action on 6 August 1918, and is buried in Borre British Cemetery, Nord, France [Grave II. G. 2].

Gareth

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Just to follow this line here are some for you in the AIF

SING William Edward 355 Pte 05 LHR A Sqn WIA 25-8-15 to 31Bn DCM MID Croix de Guerre ( (355a) F&B (famous Gallipoli sniper) (Chinese Australian)

SINGH Desanda 3720 Pte 03 LHR 34R brother Sirdar (Indian)

SINGH Sirdar 3708 Pte 03 LHR 34R brother Desanda (Indian)

S.B

[eyman]

Barrie

Many thanks for the picture. While I recall seeing a picture of a black soldier with the Essex Regiment in WW1, I would not have guessed that they were as numerous as this photograph suggests. What strikes me in particular is that men of African descent were being enlisted in a county regiment as early as 1916. Attitudes at that time would not have suggested that the authorities would have been so open to taking all comers that early in the war (although I guess the picture could date from after the introduction of conscription). It would be interesting to know if you can date it more precisely.

While it is a little outside the scope of this thread, the Essex Regiment drew from a surprisingly cosmopolitan base. 37777 Pte Jaroslav Joseph Edward Stumpf earned the MM with 1st Bn. He was from Vinchrady, Bohemia and has a distinctly Germanic surname albeit with a Slavic forename! He went on to serve as an officer with the Canadian Siberian Expeditionary Force.

Ian

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I came across this picture, which might be of interest:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/eu...me-1689774.html

[per ardua per mare per terram]

... What strikes me in particular is that men of African descent were being enlisted in a county regiment as early as 1916. Attitudes at that time would not have suggested that the authorities would have been so open to taking all comers that early in the war (although I guess the picture could date from after the introduction of conscription)...

I disagree, if the man was resident in the county or born in the UK it is unlikely there would be a problem. There are several well known examples that predate this photo. Walter Daniel John Tull, for example, joined the British Army in 1914 and his MIC shows that he entered France on 17th November 1915.

It was not compulsary for county regiments to recruit only from their county, but Essex included several port towns and also parts that were extremely close to London and the docks; areas with a diverse population.

Edited 25 April , 2010 by per ardua per mare per terram

[Nigel Marshall]

While trying to piece together the men named on a local Roll of Honour and Roll of Service, I have found the following man:

115400 Pte David Rutherford Flockhart Balintyne Bell BOYD, 10th CMR, CEF.

He was born in Australia, he enlisted in Canada, and his Next of Kin was his mother, who resided in Kinross in Scotland. Evidently a well travelled family.

A red herring as far as my project goes, but an interesting background nevertheless.

Cheers,

Nigel

[tony paley]

A company from the Royal Bermuda Regt. was affiliated to the 2nd Lincolnshire Regt during WW1 and WW2. Although these men would have been European, The Royal Bermuda Artillery provided men for the Royal Garrison Artillery these Gunners were coloured but were absorbed into the Heavies. Looking at the above photograph could this be a Pioneer battalion of the Essex Regt. This could explain the digging implements and the maturity of the soldiers.

Tony P

[aodhdubh]

A company from the Royal Bermuda Regt. was affiliated to the 2nd Lincolnshire Regt during WW1 and WW2. Although these men would have been European, The Royal Bermuda Artillery provided men for the Royal Garrison Artillery these Gunners were coloured but were absorbed into the Heavies. Looking at the above photograph could this be a Pioneer battalion of the Essex Regt. This could explain the digging implements and the maturity of the soldiers.

Tony P

Close enough, except the names. The Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps and the Bermuda Militia Artillery (detachment called Bermuda Contingent Royal Garrison Artillery).

See the topic alrready linked above:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1

[Moonraker]

I'm not sure whether in his original post Barrie was thinking more of black soldiers, rather than white people from the dominions. The soldier in his photo might have had forebears living in this country for a hundred years or more. I've come across several instances of black men in the British Army of the Great War.

The First Canadian Contingent had a number of surplus (white) officers who were transferred to British units, but some of these may have emigrated from the UK.

Moonraker