dave.ib_walker@ntlworld.co Posted 14 February , 2010 Share Posted 14 February , 2010 Evening all, I really need to stop asking questions about internet auction items, but the description of a waterbottle currently on sale raised my curiosity. In describing the bottle (an ordinary looking Mk VI) as "first pattern (circa 1914)" the vendor states: "The blue enamel was obtained by coloring the enamel with Cobalt. Early in WW1 they decided to save on the cobalt, which is a valuable metal with tool steel properties and changed the colour to the more familiar green" Given that the bottle has a metal loop for the cork string rather than having it stitched to the felt (blue-grey) it doesn't strike me as being early at all; nor was I aware of any change in colour until the Mk VII bottle in 1939; I would argue that the blue is fact the "more familiar" colour. The cobalt thing is also news. Does this learned lady or gentleman posess some incredible insight or is he/she talking through his/her proverbial? The starting price is a lowly 99p, so there's no horrible fraud being attempted, I am just interested in the veracity of the information offered which is completely unfamiliar to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul21455 Posted 14 February , 2010 Share Posted 14 February , 2010 To be charitable, it may be that the vendor is merely passing on information given to him/her when he/she came into possession of it originally. Alternatively, if they have sought advise before selling it, they could easily have been misled. Hopefully, any prospective purchaser with an interest in the topic will probably have sufficient knowledge to realise what is on offer, without relying on the blurb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 February , 2010 Share Posted 14 February , 2010 Can't comment on the water bottle itself but Cobalt was definitely a very strategic substance. The Allies controlled most of the sources and/or could interdict shipments so that it was Germany and the KuK that suffered most from shortages. I believe that artists had to find alternatives to Cobalt Blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 14 February , 2010 Share Posted 14 February , 2010 Evening all, I really need to stop asking questions about internet auction items, but the description of a waterbottle currently on sale raised my curiosity. In describing the bottle (an ordinary looking Mk VI) as "first pattern (circa 1914)" the vendor states: "The blue enamel was obtained by coloring the enamel with Cobalt. Early in WW1 they decided to save on the cobalt, which is a valuable metal with tool steel properties and changed the colour to the more familiar green" Given that the bottle has a metal loop for the cork string rather than having it stitched to the felt (blue-grey) it doesn't strike me as being early at all; nor was I aware of any change in colour until the Mk VII bottle in 1939; I would argue that the blue is fact the "more familiar" colour. The cobalt thing is also news. Does this learned lady or gentleman posess some incredible insight or is he/she talking through his/her proverbial? The starting price is a lowly 99p, so there's no horrible fraud being attempted, I am just interested in the veracity of the information offered which is completely unfamiliar to me. No, you're quite right, either the vendor is a complete fantasist or they have been advised by one. Why let boring old facts get in the way of an exciting description?! The blue water bottle carried on right into WW2, as you obviously know. If you need a Great War one (flat base, lip at top), I've got one in my spares box. However although in very good condition, it has no cover or cork. Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.ib_walker@ntlworld.co Posted 14 February , 2010 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2010 No, you're quite right, either the vendor is a complete fantasist or they have been advised by one. Why let boring old facts get in the way of an exciting description?! The blue water bottle carried on right into WW2, as you obviously know. If you need a Great War one (flat base, lip at top), I've got one in my spares box. However although in very good condition, it has no cover or cork. Regards, W. I'd be very grateful for a Great War bottle if you're willing to part with one - I have a couple of WW2 bottles which have good felt and a cork that could be canibalised. I'll PM you to discuss cash if you're content. You're a gentleman. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.ib_walker@ntlworld.co Posted 20 February , 2010 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2010 Firstly thanks to Wainfleet for the bottle! Now for the next question. Having received said bottle, I removed the felt cover from a "sacrificial" post-war one. I was surprised to note that the cork string was sewn to the inside of the cover, and that there was no metal loop on the neck of the spout; I had assumed that the loop had been removed in order to be more "authentic", but there was no sign of damage or vestigial bits of the loop. The bottle had the post-war rim round the base. On looking inside the cover (as you do) I saw a maker mark (illegible) and a clear broad arrow and "1916" date! SO the obvious question: is the date genuine? And if so, is the bottle a later addition to a wartime cover? I am now in 2 minds about replacing the bottle - help! A comparison of the bottles: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.ib_walker@ntlworld.co Posted 20 February , 2010 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2010 And the cover: I should point out that this was never sold to me on the grounds of any date stamps, but was just described as a WW1 water bottle. So before anyone gets too cynical about the motives of the vendor, I didn't pay much for it, so Ican't imagine that the mark was placed there to deceive - had I not been replacing the bottle itself, I would've remained in complete ignorance as to its existence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 Dave, et al. I think I'll jump in on this one. Firstly, the bottle & cover you have cannabalised is a perfectly good WW1 one. Your bottle, in the left of your pics, is typically earlier than the one on the right. The misconception that the lipped bottom is post WW1 is totally incorrect - it is in fact the earliest form. Some history: The blue enamelled Mark V1 was approved in 1903. The earliest & original specifications called for a lipped bottom, & a pressed top, as in the left hand bottle. This followed on from the mark V, basically the same but with a fluted neck, again specified with a lipped bottom, & a pressed top. During WW1 other contractors were brought online to cope with demand. Noted manufacturing concessions, for smaller companies that did not have pressing capabilities included lipped tops & bottoms, flat bottoms, etc. In a nutshell, The right hand bottle is a wartime manufacturing variant, the left is original spec. Covers: Early bottles had the thick wool cover(officially covers, felt, drab) in various shades of brown/pinky/ginger etc. In 1933 the wool cover was discontinued, & replaced by thin khaki drab. (covers, cloth, drab)..Covers, corks, strings, etc were issued on replacement, so it is common to find a MkV1 bottle with a later cover. It is doubtful, given the quantity in army stores in 1918, that Mark V1 bottles were manufactured between the wars. It is fair to assume that if you have a Mark V1 bottle of any base or top configuration, it was made by then. The mark V11 was intoduced in 1939, differing from the mark V1 in being made of green enamellled steel, with a welded eyelet to retain the string. The RAF used the same bottles as all the above until post WW2. Between the wars, the bag carrier for the RAF 25 pat web equipment was intoduced to hide the khaki covers. They used the khaki as 08 Pat was still in use by them, & the one bottle served for both sets of equipment this way. Likewise, the blue 37 pat RAF web still used the bag carrier. It was not until POST WW2 that the Mark V11 was made in blue enamel with the blue cover for RAF use. - I.E. any blue bottle with an eyelet is POST WW2. Stitch your cover back on Dave! P.S. As an aside, the blue colour is by accident & not design. The 'one layer enamel' process for firing the bottles used cobalt as it was the best adherent at the time. Whilst oxides of other metals such as Nickel, copper, manganese, iron - and titanium for white were available, the cobalt produced the strongest most chip resistant coating, certainly the WD's most pressing concern. Colour variation in the bottles is due to the varying amounts of cobalt with other adherents used in the process. Chris P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 Ouch! I stand corrected! Sorry for the bum steer in my last pm. Dave. It just shows that someone always knows something you don't, or in this case, I don't. Chris, it's good to see you back on here, and I hope all's well. This useful info. has now been filed! Best wishes, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 Ouch! I stand corrected! Sorry for the bum steer in my last pm. Dave. It just shows that someone always knows something you don't, or in this case, I don't. Chris, it's good to see you back on here, and I hope all's well. This useful info. has now been filed! Best wishes, W. Hi W. Yes, still around, & couldn't be better. We must catch up. The research on WB's is largely courtesy of a couple of well known individuals, with my tuppence worth, & is from LOC's, etc, original research, & not ebay! It can be relied upon. PM or email me sometime. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 P.S. As an aside, the blue colour is by accident & not design. The 'one layer enamel' process for firing the bottles used cobalt as it was the best adherent at the time. Whilst oxides of other metals such as Nickel, copper, manganese, iron - and titanium for white were available, the cobalt produced the strongest most chip resistant coating, certainly the WD's most pressing concern. Colour variation in the bottles is due to the varying amounts of cobalt with other adherents used in the process. A happy accident? Blue was once the standard colour for water canteens long before WW1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 A happy accident? Blue was once the standard colour for water canteens long before WW1 Yes, back to the 1880's. The science of enamelling is not new - The ancient egyptians, Greeks & Chinese all used it. Enamelling on steel was commercially pefected in Austria & Germany in the 1850's. I would assume that in trying different colours they quickly found out which ones were most durable. Today we see many old victorian enamelled items edged in blue, or other contrasting colours. Apart from being decorative, this was also by design, to protect the most vulnerable areas. Very clever really. Chris P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 Hi W. Yes, still around, & couldn't be better. We must catch up. The research on WB's is largely courtesy of a couple of well known individuals, with my tuppence worth, & is from LOC's, etc, original research, & not ebay! It can be relied upon. PM or email me sometime. Chris. Chris I think I can guess who one of those individuals might be. PM sent - your old e-mail add. is defunct. W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.ib_walker@ntlworld.co Posted 6 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 6 March , 2010 Chris, Wainfleet, Apologies for the tardy response; been away for a couple of weeks. Many thanks for the detailed synopsis - I have always subscribed to the "flat-bottomed = WW1" school, as that's been the received wisdom since I started collecting; I will stitch the original bottle back in forthwith! On the plus side, had I not taken the bottle out, I would never have seen the date stamp on the cover, which I can now assume is genuine. I also assume this dates the bottle to circa 1916 or before. Wainfleet, No worries on the bum steer! It's always useful to have a spare WB in the collection - I have another bottle which I now know to be a post-WW2 Mk VII (blue enamel, eyelet - thanks again Chris!) which can yield up a cover and cork. Brilliant - thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 11 March , 2010 Share Posted 11 March , 2010 Hi I would not write off a water bottle because it is blue enamel with a loop. Maybe it is just the way Chris wrote the above......... The Canadian made lipped bottom, & a pressed top Mk VII going by your info blue bottle with eyelet are usually ink stamped 1942 and 1943 dated Also the NZ made lipped top and bottom blue bottle with eyelet, removable cover quite often for sale on ebay Uk are a WW2 production. I have seen the covers off some of the Green Matt painted British bottles lipped bottom, & a pressed top with eyelet had 1950s dates. Regards Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrisc8 Posted 25 November , 2019 Share Posted 25 November , 2019 Is this a ww1 water bottle as i would like to buy it but unsure if its ww1. Thanks for any help. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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