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Remembered Today:

MC,MM groups


27thBN

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I have been after a MC,MM 15 trio group for well a long time,and was wondering how many were issued during the course of the war.As the MM only came into being from March 1916 they are scarce as then the enlisted man had to get a commission and then win a MC but how scarce ,two finally came up(at the same time) and after selling the spare body part i did not need to afford it one of them is on the way to me.Both about the same price within 100 pounds of each other

but both very expensive? and as i did not want to wait another 5 years for one to come up i got it anyway

Thanks MC

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi 27th Bn

I wouldn't know how many were awarded but the combinations below must be very rare as the MC is awarded to a WO

13769 WOII CSM James Donnelly DCM MM with 10/DLI awarded MC LG 3 Jun 1919 with 20/DLI.

Another DLI WOII CSM C Wakeham 10/DLI got the MM LG 11/11/16 and was then awarded the DCM LG 1/1/17 and then the MC LG 14/11/16.

regards

John

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Very nice combination .I had (have 1 left) 2 others that got an DCM and then a MC as warrant officers but not with an MM as well :blink: :blink: :blink:

Awesome .Somebody will have a figure approx at least for every time one has come up about every 2 to 3 years the group is always described as Rare and hence the question

Thanks

MC

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Hi

The ******* that describe groups like that as rare should go out and try to get one.

My GSM LSGC took 17 years My son has an Iraq and Afghanistan in five.

John

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Just for interest my MC,MM is to the Bantam 19th DCLI

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Hi 27th Bn

Your reply caused me some concern as only two Durham bantams (I presumed you meant 19/DLI as the DCLI didn't raise that many) were commissioned and I have traced no gallantry awards to those two men.

I went through all the DLI gallantry awards and the only one I can fit is 2/Lt Herbert Shepley 19/DLI MC 1/2/19 However his MM is as an OR with the Manchester Regiment.

If I am wrong let me know who he is so I can cross check the records.

I set a parameter of being in the same regiment - If I expand the DLI list will be very long.

Regards

John

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Hi John Yes you are correct 2/Lt Shepley is the chap ..previously with the manchesters 11th I meant that he got his MC with 19th DCLI which was a bantam Battalion .Any idea how many MCs they got and also do you have any info on Shepley apart from what you find in the LG pages .I have his service record but the 2 small things i dont know about him was .His height as he was with a regular battalion and a picture of him .Was it usual for officers going into bantam battalions to also be short ? I believe at start of 1918 the bantam bit was dropped ?

Thanks MC

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Hi MC

The action that he won the MC is recorded on page 255 of Durham Pals. Extra to the citation is the fact that The platoon that he was leading met considerable opposition and although they fought their way into the objective they were initially forced back. The fighting was very fierce. He then led the platoon forward again and captured and consolidated the enemy post and established a line.

Officers of 19/DLI were all over the bantam height limit. As I said I only know of two bantams that were commissioned.

The battalion had 13 MC's and one bar.

The photo is the presentation of colours to 19/DLI after the armistice. Your man must be one of the officers out in front, but which one?

Regards

John

post-27843-1265652969.jpg

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  • 3 months later...

Just scanning this interesting subject. I know it is some months since you all last wrote but I did not know that the medal combinations you talk about are so rare. Would an MC and Bar and MM be rare?

Welcome thoughts on the subject.

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Would an MC and Bar and MM be rare?

Very. Rarer than a MC and MM i would have thought.

Neil

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Just scanning this interesting subject. I know it is some months since you all last wrote but I did not know that the medal combinations you talk about are so rare. Would an MC and Bar and MM be rare?

Welcome thoughts on the subject.

Hi yes very if you come across one please let me know

MC

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Thanks to a chap on the forum i obtained my first MM last week.

Neil

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For comparison, the numbers for the CEF as given in Blatherwick's Canadian Army; Honours, Decorations, Awards 1902-1958 are:

MMs to the CEF - 12,341

MCs to the CEF - 2885

MC, MM combinations listed - 96

So, less than 1% of MM recipients went on to receive a MC. And a little over 3% of MC recipients had previously received the MM.

Except for a few identified as Sergeants Major, the remainder are men who received their MMs as soldiers and later commissioned, receiving their MCs as officers.

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  • 3 months later...

Yup I have been after a Tanks MC + DCM or MM for ever it seems!

(I have an MC & Bar MM to the RTR for WW2 which I believe is one of only two to the army for the whole second world war!!)

Another very rare combination is the DSO & MM - I have one to a Lt J Peel Royal Fusiliers, but have next to nothing on him.

Geoffrey

post-56052-025295200 1283639402.jpg

post-56052-008278400 1283639414.jpg

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Geoffrey,

Yourman gets a mention on page 207 of the Royal Fusiliers Regiment history. It explains that he very gallantly destroyed two enemy machin guns during the fighting at Noyelles. Have you got the book ?

Tony, - I'm pretty sure I've seen a MC,MM combo in the DNW auction.

Neil

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Geoffrey,

Yourman gets a mention on page 207 of the Royal Fusiliers Regiment history. It explains that he very gallantly destroyed two enemy machin guns during the fighting at Noyelles. Have you got the book ?

Tony, - I'm pretty sure I've seen a MC,MM combo in the DNW auction.

Neil

Hi Neil yes i got an MC,MM group about 6 months ago the one to Lt Sheply

the DSO,MM looks to be the next one im after hmm i wonder...

Cheers Tony

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Hi Neil - yes thanks - buts that is spooky, I do not have that book, but picked up a copy earlier today at Mark Carters Aldershot and read the reference you make. Must refer to his DSO award as he is a 2Lt which is nice! If you have a scan of the page though that would be much appreciated.

Geoffrey

Geoffrey,

Yourman gets a mention on page 207 of the Royal Fusiliers Regiment history. It explains that he very gallantly destroyed two enemy machin guns during the fighting at Noyelles. Have you got the book ?

Tony, - I'm pretty sure I've seen a MC,MM combo in the DNW auction.

Neil

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I'll have a go Geoffrey but my scanner is more or less goosed. If I can't sort it I'll get a photocopy and mail it to you. I'll let you know how I get on.

Neil

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I can give you some stats for Australian MC MM Trio

The Trio is an estimate but from service numbers of MM recipients my guess is 60% plus are Trio recipients.

Of 9932 Australian MM recipients 1% or 96 were awarded the MC.

Of 2369 Australian MC recipients 4% or 96 were awarded the MM.

54 of the 96 Australian MC MM recipients were awarded the MC MM.

42 of the 96 Australian MC MM recipients were awarded up to six awards including MC*, DCM, MM*, MSM, MID and foreign.

David Twining was MC MM with three MIDs and a foreign award

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This has where my 8th Division research from the Div history has taken me so far.

2nd Lt E. Edwards MGC. MC and Bar, DCM, MM.

Capt W Weston Sherwood Foresters. MC and Bar, DCM.

RSM J Chalmers 2nd Scottish Rifles MC, DCM.

2nd Lt E.A Cobbold. MC, MM

RSM E.W FRazier 1st Worcs. MC, DCM.

2nd Lt F.M. MacGregor 2nd Northamptonshire Regt MC, MM.

2nd Lt W.C Maunder 2nd Devons. MC, MM.

2nd Lt H Meathrel RA. MC, DCM.

2nd Lt F.J Smith 2nd R. Berks. MC, MM.

2nd Lt F Twist MGC. MC MM.

The numbers of MC's issued to WO's whilst in that rank is higher than you may think.

For example, again the 8th Division, there were 29 MC's issued to WO rank.

15 RSM's

1 BSM

1 RQMS

4 Sergt Major (Regt or Comp not specified)

8 CSM's

Mick

Mick

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Just 2066 MM's and 62 Second Bar's to the N.Z.E.F

530 M.C's.

I'm not sure how many MC/MM combinations there are.

Sound's like something to do this evening :-)

The MM is my favourite medal, and is the cornerstone of my collection.

Cheers

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The DSO,MM Group must make rocking horse manure seem plentiful! I suppose the MID is a given associated with the DSO award?

A DSO to a junior officer like that is probably tantamount to a VC in any case.

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I`m intrigued by the nuances of rare combination collecting. Don`t get me wrong. I`m a medal collector to casualties - not everyone`s cup of tea but it rings my bell although I`d have difficulty explaining the appeal to someone not similarly inclined. I just feel that a casualty`s medals get me closer to the atmosphere of WW1 than others. So, for the benefit of the uninitiated, what is it gents about fortuitously odd combinations of medals?

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So, for the benefit of the uninitiated, what is it gents about fortuitously odd combinations of medals?

I think these interesting combinations usually tell a great story - in the most basic terms they say about the soldier concerned that he did the job in the ranks and also as an officer. It would be interesting to see how the junior officer with DSO and MM ribbons up would have been reacted to - one would imagine with respect from both officers and men - although maybe with a bit of jealosy from officers not similarly equipped.

And, of course, these combinations are simply excessively rare. I am not sure that the word "odd" is useful in describing them. I would have thought that junior officer DSO, MM groups would number in tens as I suppose would senior officer DSO, MM groups for that matter. I suppose an analysis of the DSO citations would tell the tale.

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I would agree with you there, Ian, that reactions by and to a commissioned ranker must be a most interesting (and little described) feature of WW1. But surely any medal group may have an interesting story, not just the odd unusual ones?

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