RFA Horses, Guns & Limbers

[shutt]

I`ve been tyring to learn as much about the RFA Batteries as I can using the search facility and other sites too, found a few conflicting bits of information but think I`m getting there. I`d appreciate any comments on the following though as I`ve probably got confused on some of it !.

Typical gun crew of 10 men, a sergeant in charge, a bombardier and five gunners with three in reserve to bring up the ammo.

When on the move 18pdr hooked up to a two wheeled limber pulled by six horses in three pairs, a driver on the lh horse of each pair. A driver and assistant on the limber along with two men of the gun crew, 3 men of the gun crew with a driver and assistant on each of two ammo wagons each pulled by 4 horses. Sergeant and Bombardier each riding their own horses.

A few questions, sorry if I`m being a bit thick with some of this, but I`m really interested in this stuff now, so bear with me !.

1) What was carried in the gun limber. I assume some ammunition, spares for the gun, tools maybe ?.

2) How big were the ammo wagons, were they similar to the limber or 4 wheeled. How many rounds would be carried. Did each gun have just the two ammo wagons or were there others to supply the Battery ?.

3) Presumably there would be general supply wagons for food, equipment etc too ?. Presumably wagons carried feed for horses, blankets, farriers tools etc.

4) Horses, was there any specific requirement for breed, size etc. Would a veterinarian be attached to a Brigade, likewise a blacksmith/farrier, leathersmith ?.

I`d be interested in any information about the above. Thanks.

[Rockdoc]

1) What was carried in the gun limber. I assume some ammunition, spares for the gun, tools maybe ?.

Ammunition for the gun and rifles so that the gunners could be protected during an enemy advance by some of the other men associated with the gun but not actively firing it or preparing it for removal.

4) Horses, was there any specific requirement for breed, size etc. Would a veterinarian be attached to a Brigade, likewise a blacksmith/farrier, leathersmith ?.

Horses were specified for the various mounted units, with cavalry mounts being lighter and faster, naturally, than those used for haulage. In 'Tommy', Richard Holmes says (p161, para 1): "Most cavalry horses were 'of hunter stamp, Height 15.2 hands, cost 40 pounds in Ireland, a black gelding.' The Household Cavalry needed something bigger. 'A real nice-looking horse with plenty of bone', which was likely to cost 65 pounds as a four year old." He doesn't give details of horses used by Batteries beyond saying they were heavies. I doubt they would be very heavy, though, as they might still be needed to run hard and long when the need arose. Photos I've seen show horses that have a certain mass but not the bulk of the Shire or Punch.

Keith

[ianjonesncl]

Ammunition was held at various levels: (Ammunition numbers are rounds per gun [RPG])

In Gun limbers and therefore available on deployment - 1914 scales 13 pounder 24 RPG 18 pounder 24 RPG

In Battery wagons - these would move with battery and held within the wagon lines - 1914 scales 13 pounder 152 RPG 18 pounder 152 RPG

Brigade Ammunition Column (BAC) - a separate sub unit responsible for re-supply to the batteries. The BAC also had a Small Arms Section and was responsible for the supply of small arms ammunition to the cavalry and infantry. The scale of artillery information was 13 pounder 220 RPG and 18 pounder 76 RPG.

Divisional Ammunition Columns (DAC) - In 1914 they held 125 RPG.

The differences between the RHA (13 pounder) and the RFA (18 pounder) shows the more mobile aspect of the RHA with ammunition forward with the BAC, and the fact they served with Cavalry brigades and not divisions.

The re-organization of the Royal Artillery in May 1916 saw the abolition of Brigade Ammunition Columns and Ammunition supply was the responsibility of the Divisional Ammunition Columns. The Echelon system was adopted, with A Echelon moving ammunition to the front line and B Echelon moving it from supply depots.

[ianjonesncl]

Useful post by Dick Flory

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...&pid=133551

A field artillery brigade ammunition column (BAC) consisted of a captain, commanding the BAC, two lieutenants, a BSM, BQMS, Farrier Serjeant, 4 Shoeing Smiths, 2 saddlers, 2 wheelers, a trumpeter, 4 serjeants, 5 corporals, 5 bombardiers, 30 gunners, 96 drivers, and 3 officer's batmen. The BAC supplied ammunition to the batteries of the brigade and had no guns itself. It contained 18 limbered ammunition wagons, three six-horse General Service wagons for rifle ammunition, and three four-horse GS wagons and 7 two-horse carts for rifle ammunition. a six-horse GS wagon for technical stores, a two-horse cart for water, a bicycle and 16 spare horses. A BAC was organized to serve the three batteries of the brigade and one infantry brigade.

In May 1916 the brigades were reorgainzed and the BAC were done away with and Divisional Ammunition Columns established.

The 76th Brigade RFA was originally assigned to the Guards Division and consisted of A, B, and C Battery all armed with 18 pdrs and a BAC. On 19 January 1917 it was redesignated as the 76th Army Brigade, RFA and on 7 April 1917, 503 Battery, RFA joined and was redesignated as "D" Battery.

[centurion]

In addition a limbered wagon was sometimes used. This was effectively two limbers connected to form an articulated  vehicle and was very similar to the Limbered GS wagon Mk I. It was able to keep up with the guns and replaced/ supplemented the Ammunition and Stores Wagon (RA) Mks I & II which were effectively artillery versions of the GS wagon.

[shutt]

Thanks very much chaps, all very interesting and much appreciated. Don`t know how I missed that post by Dick Flory when I was using the search facility !. Thanks again, oh!, Merry Christmas and all the best for 2010 as well.

[ianjonesncl]

Collating the information provided I believe this is the Orbat and ammunition holdings for a 6 gun 18 pounder Brigade:

The Wagon limbers contained 38 rounds and as stated could be coupled together with one detachment moving 2 limbers.

[ianjonesncl]

Wagon Limber with 38 round capacity

Wagon limbers coupled together moving through Ypres

[phil@basildon]

An added note. The drivers allways wore a steel 'shin pad'* on their right leg. My grandfather was an RFA driver. He was the senior driver on the gun and sat on the third pair of horses, the wheel horses, and had to control the gun and limber as well as the pair of horses.

* I think the correct term is a greave, not sure of the spelling either . Perhaps the uniform/equipment experts will tell me.

[centurion]

A Limbered wagon was not quite two wagon limbers coupled together as suggested above. It was made up of a fore part and a hind part, whilst these were almost identical they were not completely identical the hind part having the addition of a removable folding seat, a hand brake and  a short perch (source Smith -  Horse Drawn Transport of the British Army)

[ianjonesncl]

Interesting clip from British Pathe showing Gun and limbers on the move.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=78847

[ianjonesncl]

Gun Limber - capacity 24 rounds

[eskimo]

Hi,

You won't go far wronge if you visit Derek Driscolls site, excellent info on the artillery make up ect.

http://www.bristolgunners.pwp.blueyonder.c...index_page2.htm

eskimo.

[shutt]

Thanks everyone for all the information and links, much appreciated.

[nigelfe]

Not sure about the figures above. Taking 1914 war establishment as the baseline, an 18-pr bde had (per Field Service Pocket Book):

12 x 2 horse carts

1 x 2 horse wagon

4 x 4 horse wagons

58 x 6 horse wagons

Horses totalled:

198 riding

548 draught

2 heavy draught

For the 13 btys, plus bde and div ammo colms in an infantry division there were 3794 horses for 76 guns, intriguingly there were also 3794 ORs (plus 156 officers). This included the Div Ammo Colm that existed separately to Bde Colms. For comparison an inf battalion had only 56 horses and a cav regt 602. However, a RHA bde was the winner with 779 horses.

After S Africa there were lots of ‘lessons learned’ reviews, this led to removal of most RA ‘Technical’ (ie specialist) wagons, changes to harnesses and many other details. They also fixed the ammo scale, and I think this was the scale in effect in 1914 but the GS Wagon is confusing. Per 18-pr it was 500 rds carried as follows:

In bty - Gun Limber – 24 rds

In bty - Two ammo wagons - 152 rds

In colms – One ammo wagon – 76 rds

In colms – One GS wagon- 248 rds

The arty draught horse was a type called a ‘light vanner’, ie the sort of horse your local butcher, baker, etc would use for deliveries. The S African war had highlighted the need for better horses and the traditional 16 hand horse gave way to compact horses of 15.2 hands

The problem was mobilisation because in peacetime a battery had only 4 guns and there was no ammo colm. In 1908 a RA cttee investigated the matter and concluded that UK did not have enough light vanners to support full mobilisation after allowing for business to continue. As a result they started a sponsored breeding program.

[ianjonesncl]

Nigel

The ammunition distribution figures I stated are from British Artillery 1914-19 Field Army Artillery Osprey Publishing and co-borated by History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery Western Front 1914-18 by General Sir Martin Farndale.

The point you made about the brigade not having an ammunition column in peacetime is a good one. Farndale states "The ammunition columns were only formed in 1914, indeed some were only formed 10 days before embarkation"

This latter point may result in the different numbers.

Ian

[nigelfe]

The recommended 500 rpg in the division comes from Headlam's official RA History 1900-14 volume. However, cross checking with the 1914 Field Service Pocket Book shows the actual 18-pr holdings in a division were 448 rds/gun:

Battery - 176 rds/gun

Ammo colms - 272 rpg

Advanced, Intermediate & Base depots - 552 rpg

18-pr ammo came in boxes of 4 rds weighing 118 lbs. A GS Wagon load was 108 rds, which is a bit more than its nominal 20cwt payload but within the 3000 lb 'not to exceed' payload. This seems to be the same for 4 or 6 horses, the bigger teams being used to support cavalry (ie faster moving).

The Div Ammo Colm had 4 sects, three carried 18-pr and SAA, each sect having 27 GS wagons. The 4th carried 4.5-in & 60-pr.

[ianjonesncl]

Nigel

Many thanks for the information. I have just ordered both Headlam and Field Service Book from Military and Naval Press to add to the library.

Farndale states "Ammunition supply was a major problem but a system of re-supply had been perfected in 1914 just before the war had started. The system was based upon the scale of ammunition system being carried with the guns and in the brigade and divisional ammunition columns"

The 108 rounds per wagon GS ties a number of figures together, both from Farndale and Headlam (though not exactly), but does indicate good staff procedures for the supply of ammunition.

Both have the same number of rounds at battery level 176 rounds per gun (rpg). This equates to 1 gun limber (24) and two wagon limbers (152) per gun.

Farndale has 76 rounds per gun in the Brigade Ammunition Column. Looking at a post by Dick Flory on the a BAC establishment he details 18 limbered wagons. With a capacity of 76 rounds (2 x 38 per limber), this gives the one limbered wagon per gun.

For an 18 gun 18 pdr brigade this would give 252 rpg, a total of 4536 rounds, which incidentally requires 42 GS wagon lifts. So any Artillery Brigade on deployment or moving back into the line would know exactly how to plan getting their ammunition to their brigade to replenish their limbers.

Farndale states that the total rounds "Forward" was 378 rounds per gun. Taking off the 252 at the Brigade, that leaves 126 rounds per gun - 2268 rounds - 21 GS wagon lifts.

So provided sufficient wagons GS were available (I have not tied this back to any of the various establishments), the whole of the divisions 18 pdr artillery ammunition could be on wheels. Again planning and organisation is made easier as everything fits together. This being of particular importance when deploying to theater.

The closest I came to Headlam's 272 rpg was 270 rpg based upon 3 wagons GS. Incidentally Dick Flory's post on the BAC mentions wagons GS twice as carrying rifle ammunition. ("It contained 18 limbered ammunition wagons, three six-horse General Service wagons for rifle ammunition, and three four-horse GS wagons and 7 two-horse carts for rifle ammunition). Maybe the first 3 are Artillery Ammunition?

The ammunition at Advanced, Intermediate & Base depots I believe is in the realms of the ASC, however again, the 108 rounds works out. For the 18 gun brigade this is 9,936 rounds, 92 wagon GS lifts.

Hopefully all the figures stack up to the magic 108 rounds per wagon GS. Matching the ammunition requirements to the transport means you could now plan the manpower, horses, rail transport, time, space, etc etc. to make it happen.

If my assumptions on the efficiency of the planning is correct, I can see why the BEF was able to deploy so efficiently to the continent in 1914.

If this does stack up - then many many thanks for the magic 108 rounds !!!!!!!

Ian

[nigelfe]

From Bethell's Modern Artillery in the Field 1911 (pgs 100 - 102).

For field artillery the maximum weight of a carriage is determined by the capabality of a 6 horse team at the walk. The figures are:

RFA - 40 cwt

France - 37 cwt

Germany - 34.4 cwt

Austria - 37.5 cwt

Russia - 38.5 cwt

Italy - 33.5 cwt

Spain - 34 cwt

RHA (32.75 cwt) is based on carriage weight at trot or gallop.

"Most QF guns carry 36 rds in the limber, or less than 2 minutes supply. It is therefore accompanied by a wagon in the fighting line. Therefore it is no longer necessary to carry a complete detachment on the gun, the men can be divided between gun and wagon. Thus the French carry 3 men on each limber besides the mounted gun-commander (chef de piéce). The Germans carry, in addition, 2 men on axletree seats; but in most modern equipments these are provided as emergency seats only. Our own limbers are seated for 3 but we usually only carry 2 on the gun limber, 2 on the wagon limber, 1 on the wagon body, besides the No 1 and No 10 (coverer, who rides with the wagon) on their horses."

He also deals with mechanical traction, complete with drawing of Hornsby caterpillar towing a 60-pr.

[E Wilcock]

I came to this thread looking for info on Farriers, Vet officers and other horse professionals attached to RFA Brigades. My question is.

How can I find out which was the Farrier sergeant or Vet officer for a Brigade?

However, as a second point: I'm not sure about ammo columns not coming into existence until 1914.

My website contains some details of the 243 (4th South Midland) Brigade RFA Ammo Column in the pre-war period.

Apart from family papers and the web sites for 240 nd 241 Brigade, I relied on NDG James Before the Echoes Die Away which is a history of 242 Brigade but includes a chapter on 243 (4th South Midland) Brigade RFA.

on p. 41 James cites His Majesty's Territorial Army of c 1909 at the time the Brigade was established. This lists an ammo column and gives the name of Lt C.P. Nickalls who was in charge of it. I assumed I had a pretty continuous record of the officers who commanded the Ammo Column. Capt. G.D. Browne in 1911.

It is interesting to read what the limbers could carry - but the main impression one gets after the Brigade went out to France in Spring 1915 is that they were not allowed to fire even what munitions they had. There was an extreme shortage of munitions and this led to the appoinment of Lloyd George as Minister of Munitions and other changes in the government.

[ianjonesncl]

The thread has really been about the Regular Army RFA 18 pounder 6 gun batteries.

The reference to formation of ammunition columns in 1914 comes from Farndale "History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery Western Front 1914-18" page 4

"The ammunition columns were only formed in 1914, indeed some were only formed 10 days before embarkation".

In terms of the Territorial force I believe you are right in saying that the ammunition columns were an integral part of the establishment before the war. The Northumbrian Divisional Artillery brigades all had their BACs.

I also believe in 1914 all the Territorial gun Brigades were equipped with the 15 pounder BLC (howitzer brigades 5" ) and the batteries were of 4 guns each. I was about to start a separate post on the 1914 establishments for RFA brigades so any information would be most welcome.

The point about the ammunition shortage is well made. The 1st Northumbrain Brigade history details the shortage of 15 pounder ammunition in June 1915. One approach they adopted; "We saved up our weekly allowance as much as we could; it amounted to 3 rounds per gun per day. so by Saturday we had no less than eight-four rounds play with, unless the Bosch had been absolutely asking for it or "Higher Authority" had ordered us to take an active part in the War. The last day of the week was therefore a great one, and we all used to assemble in the OP's in Bloke Row and fire for a series of wagers"

The position they were firing from was on Mount Kemmel in June 1915.and they had just relived from the 2nd North Midland Brigade.

[ianjonesncl]

The differences noted between Farndale History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery Western Front 1914-18 and Headlam The History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery - Volume 2 is that Hedlam has 2 tables showing the ammunition allocations.

The table on page 189 was based upon the South African experience, the final allotment is detailed on page 213. It is this latter figure that is quoted in Farndale page 4.

Headlam quotes the latter table as being "the actual distribution of the artillery ammunition carried in the field"

[nigelfe]

I think you'll find that the TF units in peacetime were supposed to be at their war establishments, which included the ammo colm. Regular units were at peacetime establishment. When mobilised regular units expanded to 6 guns and created their ammo colm using mostly reservists and requisitioned horses to make up the difference between peace and war establishments. However, I think TF units lacked any horses (who would look after them?) and therefore the main mobilisation issue for them was to requisition horses.