daggers Posted 13 December , 2009 Share Posted 13 December , 2009 As a past Gunner, I am ashamed to say that I cannot remember what piece of ordnance the badge represents. Can anyone oblige please? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw63 Posted 13 December , 2009 Share Posted 13 December , 2009 As a past Gunner, I am ashamed to say that I cannot remember what piece of ordnance the badge represents. Can anyone oblige please? D I'm an ex-gunner too. We were only ever told it was a gun you can't fire. A quick search of the internet reveals it is a 9 pound muzzle loader from the 1870s. (http://www.the39ersclub.com/id59.html ) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 I'm an ex-gunner too. We were only ever told it was a gun you can't fire. A quick search of the internet reveals it is a 9 pound muzzle loader from the 1870s. (http://www.the39ersclub.com/id59.html ) Simon Surely Simon... the Field Gun must be earlier that, as the Artillery were formed by Royal Warrent in 1716... if my memory serves me well? Swph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River97 Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Surely Simon... the Field Gun must be earlier that, as the Artillery were formed by Royal Warrent in 1716... if my memory serves me well? Swph From what I could find, Simon's right. Maybe they didn't have a badge before the 1870's. And yes, 1716 is correct and they first used the title 'Royal Artillery' in 1920. Cheers Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 From what I could find, Simon's right. Maybe they didn't have a badge before the 1870's. Cheers Andy. Thanks Andy. 'D'.. Simon.... What do the RA teach in reference to your Cap Badge? Its got me interested now! Especially since there must have been artillery of some form or another at vertually every battle the British Army has fought in since our Civil War (English.. not US). As I don't wish the moderators to kill your thread.... I can't think of any battle during WW1 where the Artillery were not present! Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Thanks Andy. 'D'.. Simon.... What do the RA teach in reference to your Cap Badge? Its got me interested now! Especially since there must have been artillery of some form or another at vertually every battle the British Army has fought in since our Civil War (English.. not US). As I don't wish the moderators to kill your thread.... I can't think of any battle during WW1 where the Artillery were not present! Seph Technically speaking there was no British Army involved in the Civil war , the First English Civil War was fought between two English Armies and the Second English Civil War also involved a Scottish Army (at Worcester). The first time a British Army could be said to have fought was after the 1707 Act of Union in the '15. There were certainly artillery at battles in which the English Army fought long long before the Civil War, towards the end of the 100 years war and in the Wars of the Roses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 FWIW I was under the impression that the early Arty badge was a bursting bomb as worn now, and for years before, as collar badges. This is where Fusilier regiments adopted their badge from as they originally guarded the artillery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw63 Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Thanks Andy. 'D'.. Simon.... What do the RA teach in reference to your Cap Badge? Its got me interested now! Especially since there must have been artillery of some form or another at vertually every battle the British Army has fought in since our Civil War (English.. not US). As I don't wish the moderators to kill your thread.... I can't think of any battle during WW1 where the Artillery were not present! Seph Seph, Do you want to hear the clean version or rude version? Clean version: The Gunners do not carry any colours on parade because the guns are their colours. Likewise, the Gunners have only one battle honour - "Ubique" (This is worn on a scroll above the gun on the cap badge) because the guns have fought in every major battle since the invention of gunpowder. When parading with their guns, the Gunners take the right of line. This puts them first before all others in the British Army. Rude version: A Crown you can't wear A Gun you can't fire Grass you can't smoke and the last 5 letters sum you up ("Quo fas et Gloria Ducunt") Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Joining the list of embarrassed Gunners... In the Story of The Royal Regiment of Artillery by Brigadier CAL Graham DSO (small brown book which was on sale at Woolwich) it outlines " In the year 1833 it was decided that artillery units should discontinue wearing their individual distinctions and the Regiment as a whole was granted the privilege of bearing the Royal Arms over a gun" The gun in question has slightly different to that on the modern cap badge (different barrel and trail) . Captain RJ McDonald's The History of the Dress of the Royal Regiment of Artillery states "this was taken into wear by Officers in 1833, by other ranks 1834. The last print in this book is 1897 and this is the type of badge that is worn: The gun again seems slightly different to the modern badge (trail) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 A Crown you can't wear A Gun you can't fire Grass you can't smoke and the last 5 letters sum you up ("Quo fas et Gloria Ducunt") Simon Not forgetting a wheel you cant turn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 14 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2009 I've put an email in to Firepower and will post their asnwer here - I thought one or more of our sages would have had the definitive answer by now! D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Not forgetting a wheel you cant turn! Some versions of the badge have a wheel that can be turned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 I was under the impression the badge was based loosely on the 9 pounder. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 15 December , 2009 Share Posted 15 December , 2009 The gun in the badge is a 9 Pdr smoothbore muzzle loader. The current cap badge was, I believe, introduced with the Broderick cap in the early 1900's. I am sure Paul, the Librarian at Firepower will give us the definitive answer. Phil (Secretary of the Friends of Firepower) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 15 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2009 Thanks Phil and Greg - the 9-pdr seems to be gaining credibility, with three nominations so far, but is 1871 the correct vintage? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 17 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Here is what MUST be the definitive reply, just received from Paul Evans at the Royal Artillery Library, Woolwich: "THE CAP BADGE OF THE ROYAL REGIMENT OF ARTILLERY The gun badge for all members of the Royal Regiment of Artillery was introduced in 1902 to be worn in the Service Dress Cap by all ranks of the Regiment (Regular Army). The design of the badge derives from the Coat of Arms of the Royal Regiment of Artillery which was granted to the Regiment in July 1832 by His Majesty King William IV. The Royal arms and supporters with a cannon and the motto "Ubique quo fas et gloria ducunt". This was amended in 1833 to "Ubique" and "Quo fas et gloria ducunt", which translates to "Everywhere" and "Whither right and glory lead". The gun used is said to be a Smooth Bored Muzzle Loading 9 pounder with a wooden trail, the trail was changed to steel in 1872. The gun badge has both mottoes of the Regiment UBIQUE (EVERYWHERE) on the upper scroll and QUO FAS ET GLORIA DUCUNT (WITHER RIGHT AND GLORY LEAD) on the lower scroll. A modified design was worn by members of the Territorial Force (laurel spray replaced UBIQUE) and the Volunteers (the word VOLUNTEERS replaced UBIQUE). It was made in brass for Soldiers, also bronze and gilt with a raised wheel for Officers. The Bronze version is worn on the Service Dress Cap and on the flap of a brown leather pouch attached to a brown leather shoulder belt worn by Officers in Service Dress. The Gilt version is worn on the Number 1 Dress Cap and on the flap of a black leather pouch attached to a shoulder belt worn by Officers in some forms of dress. A plastic version was produced during World War 2 for wear by Other Ranks on the Cap General Service (a large khaki gabardine beret). A brass version with a revolving raised wheel was produced privately for sale through the canteens, the Royal Artillery Association sells a similar version in anodised aluminium. In 1954 the crown was changed to the St. Edward's Crown. Marc J Sherriff © April 1997" The message I received included full colour versions of the coat of arms and the badge, but these have not reproduced here. Otherwise, what better answer could we have? Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Daggers: That is really interesting and useful info. Is there an equally definitive story for the RA badge as worn by the RHA? For example, how many of the regiments (such as Warwickshire) had the county on the scroll instead of Ubique? PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Some versions of the badge have a wheel that can be turned. Officer's Badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Daggers: That is really interesting and useful info. Is there an equally definitive story for the RA badge as worn by the RHA? For example, how many of the regiments (such as Warwickshire) had the county on the scroll instead of Ubique? PM There was a very good series of articles in the 70's (I think) in The Gunner magazine by the late Norman Litchfield which detailed the various versions of cap badges, cyphers and helmet plates. I have them somewhere and given the opportunity (probably over the Christmas break) if anyone is interested I'll dig them out and scan them. I will not post them on here, but would be happy to e-mail them to anyone interested. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Officer's Badge But see comment from the RA Museum above; Officer's SD bronze badge does generally have a revolving wheel, but there are plenty of brass ('gilding metal') versions, so it's interesting to hear that these were probably private purchase. Another point of interest is that some RA badges have strengthening applied to the rear, at the weak point where the crown joins the gun. This, I believe, was a Great War modification, in line with other badges of the time (such as the Connaught Rangers, for example). Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 18 December , 2009 Share Posted 18 December , 2009 "The gun badge for all members of the Royal Regiment of Artillery was introduced in 1902 to be worn in the Service Dress Cap by all ranks of the Regiment (Regular Army)." Not quite definitive. There was no such thing as a "Service Dress Cap" in 1902. As Op-Ack has said, it was the Brodrick at that time. I think that the SD caps finally arrive in 1906... Peter - I would think that there are far too many brass/gilding metal badges around with the revolving wheel for them all to have been private purchase. I'm not sure why any Gunner with an ounce of common sense would have bought something which was harder to keep clean than the one he was issued with! Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 19 December , 2009 Share Posted 19 December , 2009 The badge grandad wore had a revolving wheel, probably an affectation allowed for older serving SNCO's as well as officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 19 December , 2009 Share Posted 19 December , 2009 At the beginning of 1902 AO10 and several others introduced Service Dress and, amazingly, considering things like badges for it were being designed and made a year earlier, there was no proper provision for SD headgear. Soldiers were to wear the felt hat, wide brimmed, overseas, and forage cap, glengarry etc at Home 'for the present'. I rather doubt if the Brodrick [nb spelling] was issued at the same time, I think it took about a year to get to the soldiers. Joe Sweeney can probably be definitive on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 19 December , 2009 Share Posted 19 December , 2009 At the beginning of 1902 AO10 and several others introduced Service Dress and, amazingly, considering things like badges for it were being designed and made a year earlier, there was no proper provision for SD headgear. Soldiers were to wear the felt hat, wide brimmed, overseas, and forage cap, glengarry etc at Home 'for the present'. I rather doubt if the Brodrick [nb spelling] was issued at the same time, I think it took about a year to get to the soldiers. Joe Sweeney can probably be definitive on this. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...mp;hl=broderick "The "Forage Cap, New Pattern" or "Forage Cap, Universal" is the correct nomenclature for the Broderick Cap. It was introduced in 1902. It was still in inventory as late as 1907 and was worn as late as that date. Although, by 1907 it's use was getting rare having been supplanted by the Service Dress cap and another version of Forage cap with a peak." The Service Dress jacket was also introduced in 1901, not 1902 - again, courtesy of Joe Sweeney: "This is the correct info of SD Jacket evolution (published in Militaria Magazine in 2005 (all info correct to three cross referenced sources two RACD Pattern books and PVCN): 1901 13-Aug-01 Approval of First Pattern 1902 26-Feb-02 Modification of Pattern 1902 1-Dec-02 Modification of Pattern 1903 29-Jul-03 Modification of Pattern--(Shoulder Cord added) 1904 30-Nov-04 Modification of Pattern (fixed Shoulder Straps added) 1906 29-Aug-06 Modification of Pattern (ID card pocket removed) 1908 16-Jul-08 Administrative Change (all corded Jackets to be turned in and only metal titles worn) Simplified Oct-Nov 1914 Modification of Pattern (Pattern book missing) 1915 5-Jun-15 Modification of Pattern (common Wartime Jacket) 1917 6-Nov-17 Modification to Fabrication Instructions (all Machine Sewn) 1918 20-Aug-18 Committee approved change 1921 26-Feb-21 New Revised Pattern (commonly called the Pattern 22) Kind of goes against many beliefs on SD jackets. There never was a Pattern 1907 Jacket and although AO 10 introduced SD in 1902 all patterns of SD where pattern sealed in 1901. The first SD jacket pattern introduced in 1901 had removable shoulder straps. These were replaced by corded straps on 29 July 1903. These in turn were replaced by the fixed shoulders straps like the jacket this man is wearing on 30 Nov 1904--no changes to shoulder straps after that date. However, all three patterns continued to be worn at the same time with a mix of insignia. When the jacket this man is wearing was introduced in 1904 they were supposed to be worn with metal title, but metal title procurement lagged. However, there was quite a bit of variation in insignia worn and mixing was common. Only on 16 July 1908 were all older pattern jackets ordered to be turned in and only Metal titles worn. This was a fairly rare occurence since usually older patterns were allowed to wear out until stocks were exhausted." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 December , 2009 Share Posted 19 December , 2009 "I rather doubt if the Brodrick [nb spelling] was issued at the same time, I think it took about a year to get to the soldiers." Hi Grump, I have a Brodrick issued to Cpl J Green of the 1st Battalion Norfolk Regiment in 1906 (see photos) but the tin it came in has a 1902 makers plate so they must have been around some time in 1902. The Royal Marines used them into the 1920s and the Marines Museum have a shot of the Kings Squad wearing them as late as the 1930s. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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