john jerome mcmanus Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 G'day all, I recently purchased a copy of Philip Gibbs' "The Battles of the Somme" 1st edition 1917 and came across the following: '... there were some captured German guns below ... worth seeing as the first-fruits of victory. They were being fastened to our own gun-carriages and taken off to the place where such trophies go, ...Queer, beastly things were some of these captured engines. There were long wooden barrels hooped with steel, and with a touch-hole to fire the charge for a "plum-pudding" bomb large enough to blow up ten yards of trench - as primitive as the engines of war used in the fifteenth century.' Can anyone provide me with any details about these weapons and/or photos? Regards Pop (Sean McManus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 See enclosed photo.There have been postings on the weapon somewhere on the forum. Made of wood tightly bound with wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 I imagine they were fired with a very long lanyard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 I imagine they were fired with a very long lanyard! Not a lot of use in a touch hole! A long fuse possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 The Albrecht mortar was fired by either a fuze or an electric detonator and was intended as a limited lifespan weapon. It had the advantage of being relatively light, I'm surprised that the Germans didn't think of using them when they were trying to develop their own Livens equivalent. The wooden mortar isn't new - the Union forces used 12 pounder oak mortars (bound with iron straps) in the trenches at Petersberg and Mobile Bay in the closing stages of the ACW as there was a shortage of Cohorns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 QUOTE: Not a lot of use in a touch hole! A long fuse possibly. Touche! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john jerome mcmanus Posted 10 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 September , 2009 G'day Centurion, Many thanks for your prompt reply. Again the resources of this Forum have proven themselves. Regards Pop (Sean McManus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 10 September , 2009 Share Posted 10 September , 2009 Hi, the actual mortar with wooden barrel and hooped with steel Regards, Cnock Albrecht, same type as Centurion's pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AntonEbans Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 The wooden mortar isn't new - the Union forces used 12 pounder oak mortars (bound with iron straps) in the trenches at Petersberg and Mobile Bay in the closing stages of the ACW as there was a shortage of Cohorns. Also, earlier, during the seige of Vicksburg (June-July 1863) there were wooden mortars being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Hi, the actual mortar with wooden barrel and hooped with steel Regards, Cnock Albrecht, same type as Centurion's pic I think the drawing is over scale or the soldier is exceptionally slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Centurion, that s why it is a 45 cm mortar, the one in Your pic is only 25 cm Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Centurion, that s why it is a 45 cm mortar, the one in Your pic is only 25 cm Cnock Well you did say "Albrecht, same type as Centurion's pic" in your post! 450mm is still only 18 inches in old English money so I think my comment would still stand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_sfl Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 At http://www.collectorssource.com/ they even had one for sale this summer. I used to think they were makeshift devices made by sappers but there must have been at least an accepted standard design. Are there any references about the grenades used? I could imagine that such devices would be improvized to use enemy ammunition that has been seized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_sfl Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 I just saw they still have it! But poor condition.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 15 September , 2009 Share Posted 15 September , 2009 Centurion, there are pics of guys even getting in WW1 38 cm guns Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 See enclosed photo.There have been postings on the weapon somewhere on the forum. Made of wood tightly bound with wire. As a retired Pyrotechnician I can easily state that larger bore tubes shoot farther and project more weight with a correct grade of blackpowder lift charge. We use HDPE plastic guns to shoot fireworks shows, as long as they cool between shots, they actually can shoot heavy shells quite a distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 beats the horse-drawn zeppelin, converted to steam power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 I am having a problem with the alleged 45 cm mortar. The gun, being largely wood, might have been light, but the shell would have been extraodinarily heavy. The German 42 cm howitzers had a variety of shells, but a typical weight was 2100 lbs, and some may have been considerably heavier. If the 45 cm shell was configured like a 42 cm shell we are talking about 2500 lbs, roughly. If this gun was used the shell was probably shorter (even round?), but it is hard to see how it could have been less than 1000 or 1200 lbs. This sort of gun could only have worked with a very light propellant charge. Therefore, it would have to be very far up in the front lines. Dragging a 1000 lb. shell thru the trenches? In 1916 the Germans were having a serious problem with "Big Bertha" 42 cm barrels bursting. These guns did not have wooden barrels. Perhaps the wooden guns were one-shot devices and were loaded with a multi-part charge. 25 cm, probably. 45 cm, I would have to be shown this, unless it was a one-shot device, multi-part "projectile", that could be fired remotely. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Posted 21 February , 2011 Share Posted 21 February , 2011 As a ex pyrotechnician we fire large firework shells to 1200 feet easily using light steel and plastic mortars, at a 45 degree angle this can easily reach 5 to 6 hundred meters with a weight of sixty pounds. The reason for wooden mortars was the infantry could actually carry them into position, the longer barrels increased range considerably. The weight of explosive to shell weight gave these mortars a huge blast effect on a target easily destroying wire and earthworks, as well as killing men with concussion. The two things that make them work is the correct type of very coarse powder and about a tenth of an inch windage so the pressure does not get to high in the tube. They are not efficient guns as to powder use, range, or accuracy. Just imagine being next to a tin can ten inches in diameter and over a foot long packed with high explosive when it exploded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seany Posted 21 February , 2011 Share Posted 21 February , 2011 Are there any references about the grenades used? Grenades? according to post 08 they seemed to fire volunteers. Sorry to lower the tone, (Centurion I do apologise) but its gone 4 and I'm getting a bit bored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 21 February , 2011 Share Posted 21 February , 2011 According to a US Army manual of 1918 there were two essential types one on the metal stand as shown and one three quarters buried. And I was incorrect there was an attempt to use them as a gas projector a la the Livens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 29 September , 2014 Share Posted 29 September , 2014 For Centurion,his post nr.10, see the big Albrecht at the right drawing was not oversized, or soldier too slim Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodB Posted 29 September , 2014 Share Posted 29 September , 2014 See the topic on "Earth Mortar" : http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=156767 Projectile and trench emplacement info and diagrams are given. There appear to have been two types : one with a conventional support (Albrecht ?) apparently for deployment above ground something like a giant Stokes mortar, and another intended to be dug in (Erdmörser) like a Livens projector. Or were the Albrecht and Erdmörser one and the same, just deployed differently ? I get the impression that these relatively weakly-made devices could throw such large projectiles because the projectiles were relatively light : thin walls and stuffed full of explosive which was fairly light. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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