PhilB Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 1RM Diary, JULY 1918 1st Bn. provides working parties of 5 Officers & 265 ORs for work with R.E.s. Lts. MCBRYDE & HOW reconnoitre FRONT LINE. 2/Lt. MAHDUR SINGH attd. D Coy for instruction. Any information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Well spotted, Phil. I have not come across this name before, but will certainly look into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 10 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2009 It doesn`t actually say he`s RM but he`s highly unlikely to be Indian Army attached in mid 1918? I`d be interested in anything you find on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Unlikely to be Indian Army attached, I suspect. King's Commissions (i.e. the same as a British officer - Lieutenant, Captain, etc) weren't open to Indians until 1918, when 10 places were allocated at Sandhurst. These commissions were also only in the Indian Land Forces (although, as with British offciers destined for Indian Army service, a year was to be spent with a British unit in India). There was a huge amount of discussion over how exactly officers would be allocated, but suffice it to say that by mid-WW2 regiments such as the 2nd Lancer's (Gardners) were being commanded by Indians, so it wasn't bad progress in many ways. The exception would have been Indian Medical Services - doctors, in other words - in which Indians were posted to Indian units. Extremely unlikely to have been the case here, though. An exception might also be Honorary Lieutenants and so on, but this was a position granted to senior Viceroy's Commissioned Officers (the Subedars, Jemadars and suchlike) for longand distinguished service. Leaves me with no idea who Madhur Singh would be (a Rajput or a Sikh, I assume) though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGWR Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 I wonder if this is the chap: Collection 430/20 Candidates selected for admission to Sandhurst and for temporary commissions; grant of direct commissions to Madhur Singh and Mulraj Singh. IOR/L/MIL/7/19026 1918-1921 British Library, Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections Military Department Records [iOR/L/MIL/7/16624 - IOR/L/MIL/7/19656] Regards, AGWR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Unless there are two of them, probably. Well done that man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Probably not the case here, but I know of a British-born son of an Indian father and an English mother who served in the RE Special Brigade and had the right sort of qualifications to be commissioned from the ranks if he hadn't been killed first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Probably not the case here, but I know of a British-born son of an Indian father and an English mother who served in the RE Special Brigade and had the right sort of qualifications to be commissioned from the ranks if he hadn't been killed first. Any photo of him, or further details? After some years away from the subject, I am currently re-visiting the subject of Black soldiers in the British & Commonwealth forces and would appreciate anything you are able/willing to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Don't know if this helps.... London Gazette #31123, 14 January 1919. Link to the Gazette is Here The KING has approved the grant of the temp. rank of 2nd Lieut, in the I.A. to the undermentioned officers: 15th June 1918. Hon. 2nd Lieut. Kumar Shri Mulraj Singh. Hon. 2nd Lieut. Kumar Shri Madhur Singh. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPAE Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Paul, Not intending to hi-jack this thread, but in researching Fulneck School, Pudsey, I have found backgrounds rooted in the Church, in this case Moravian, of former pupils such as Benjamin Augustus Westphal 2nd. Lt. 18th.Bn. Manchester Regt. died age 24 on 23/04/1917, son of Augustus and Georgina Westphal, Fairfield, Spur Tree, Jamaica. However, without a picture, or written description I have no idea of this man's colour. For years I assumed Tony Cozier was black due to his Carribean accent, and was very surprised to find out he was white. I have another W.Indian, L St.J Sanguuinetti, son of Haughton and Jessie, from Jamaica who MAY be who you are looking for, too, but furthur research is required. Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 There's also a file at the NA for a M Singh...... WO374/62688 SINGH, 2/Lieut M 1918-1921 Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Thanks to Steve and Phil for that information. Phil - there were many white families in the WI who had sons serving as officers in the British Army. However, it is worth checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Any photo of him, or further details? No photo of him, unfortunately, but http://www.berr.gov.uk/aboutus/corporate/h.../page29380.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At Home Dad Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 I'd be interested if you discover anything relating to the Commonwealth of Dominica in your research, Paul. kind regards E After some years away from the subject, I am currently re-visiting the subject of Black soldiers in the British & Commonwealth forces and would appreciate anything you are able/willing to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Paul If you wish to go to: http://www.kaiserscross.com/188001/198201.html Find "Harry's Africa" and click on Baganda Rifles you will find detail on Captain Daudi Chwa, Kabaka of Buganda, who qualified for his three Great War Medals. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Many thanks for those additional posts and links. I appreciate your help. No photo of him, unfortunately, but http://www.berr.gov.uk/aboutus/corporate/h.../page29380.html That link appears to be broken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Sorry, Paul, don't know what to suggest - the link works for me. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 King's Commissions (i.e. the same as a British officer - Lieutenant, Captain, etc) weren't open to Indians until 1918, I was surprised to read this as I understood that Indra Lal Roy was commissioned in 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 the link works for me. No problems here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 I was surprised to read this as I understood that Indra Lal Roy was commissioned in 1917. I suspect the caveat Commissions into the Indian Army weren't allowed until 1918? I would guess that a Westernised, educated Indian would be acceptable to British troops, but not to British officers of Indian units. Additionally, States units (i.e. those provided by the semi-autonomous States - such as Jodhpur) would be officered by their own officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Thanks - the link is working now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Paul Above is an image of Lieutenant (Prince) Joseph Musanje Walungembe of the African Native Medical Corps (ANMC), a unit raised in Uganda. The unit recruited well educated young Africans and trained them to high medical standards where they could supervise African hospital wards and patients. Sadly in Dar Es Salaam the unit did occasionally encounter white-kneed, fresh off the boat from UK, RAMC types who sometimes on entering an AMNC-supervised ward would order all the medical orderlies and attendants outside to cut the grass along with the other blacks! However the unit performed an excellent job in providing medical support to African infantry and Carrier Corps units. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 11 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Were Maoris affected by the race rules? Captain Natanahira Te Umutapu Parata in army uniform. Photograph taken in 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Harry, thanks for that information. Most interesting; not come across that before, but as I say, I haven't spent much time on this subject for a few years. Phil - given the number of Maoris who served as officers in the Maori Pioneer Battalion then there must have been a relaxed attitude to them. Am still trying to find out who this chap is. He has a George V sword, and I believe it may be pre-1920s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 11 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Whoever he is, he`s very smart. And has a good tailor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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