Chris_Baker Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 We have speculated one a few occasions whether there is any discernible pattern to surviving army service records, that would hint at the layout and organisation of the Arnside Street warehouse that was burned in 1940. I don't think we will ever know. But here's just one example and in this case there is a hint of something. On searching for a soldier with a relatively uncommon name, I found that just eight sets of service records exist in WO363 (burned series). Of these, only one man served overseas. There are 25 men listed in the medals index, including that one man. So 24 sets of men who did go overseas are destroyed and 7 who remained at home were not. Curious. Could be just luck, I suppose, but it suggests to me that overseas / not overseas were stored in different areas. It may just be me noticing particular things but whenever going through the microfilm reels it always seems to me there is an over representation of those who did not go overseas and of Labour Corps men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 It sounds like you may be on to something there Chris - though if so then the implications are not encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Clay Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 No science to my observation here, Chris, and no significance, I'm sure - but at present I'm aware of only 2 of my Clay ancestors who served - and service records survive for both, showing that both served overseas. Just an observation and in no way detracting from any pattern you've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 All three brothers whose surname began with G were all destroyed in case of alphabetically stored. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 28 February , 2009 Share Posted 28 February , 2009 To complicate matters, I have a 66% success rate with MM winners I have looked into... Best wishes, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 28 February , 2009 Share Posted 28 February , 2009 ... it suggests to me that overseas / not overseas were stored in different areas. ... it always seems to me there is an over representation of those who did not go overseas and of Labour Corps men. It could be that postwar the army made an effort to maintain the records of men who were considered to have been eligible for further military service in a more accessible place than those such as the Labour Corps who were more likely to have had medical conditions or were considered to have been overage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 1 March , 2009 Share Posted 1 March , 2009 I have yet to NOT find the service record of any of the 4th Lincs men transferred to the 1st Royal Lancs on 4 Sep 1916. Until I ended my ancestry subscription I was 35 for 35. Compared with less than 25% "finds" for 4th Lincs "originals"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Lee Posted 1 March , 2009 Share Posted 1 March , 2009 Chris My experience of searching for Labour Corps men who were kia, dow or involved in accidents suggests that there is no noticeable difference with those in front line units. I suspect the reason there appear to be so many LC men is the number that at some time were in the Corps. I have come across many whose service was a matter of weeks - even one who was enlisted, called up for service and discharged as medically unfit the next day! In 1918 about 11% of the Army in France were in the Corps but I would suggest that perhaps the true figure of men who served in the Corps could be as high as 20 - 25% of the Army - perhaps my next research task is to try to get a more accurate figure! Ivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 1 March , 2009 Share Posted 1 March , 2009 Hello all Jim Davies' experience is impressive but in terms of some 5.5 million records, the numbers quoted in this thread are too small to draw meaningful conclusions. There is a tendency to assume that the records were stored alphabetically, whether within regiments or in one Army-wide run, but at this distance it is difficult to tell which would have been more useful to those who had to search them. Remember, too, that soldiers' records were not the only files stored at Arnside Street. Many older WO files were also kept there and have been lost, such as ALL BUT ONE of the Court-Martial records between 1950 and 1914. The exception is Captain J B Carey, who was blamed for the death of the French Princi Imperial in the Zulu War, and whose file may well have been kept in another class which relates specifically to that incident. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andiS Posted 2 March , 2009 Share Posted 2 March , 2009 My assumption would be that record survival has to do with the place the relevant box/cabinet/envelope/etc was at the time of the air raid. In theory records would have been stored away in a nice tidy organized system - but I'm sure that boxes were moved to get at other stuff, or moved so the wall could be painted and put back in the 'wrong' place, or just organised in the 'old frank' system (as in "That lot? Oh just ask Old Frank as he knows where he put them"). Let's face it we've all done something like this ourselves.... For all we know the survival of Great Grandad's records may be entirely down to Old Frank moving the relevant box in order to put down a mouse trap - now there's a sobering thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bramley Posted 2 March , 2009 Share Posted 2 March , 2009 I have yet to NOT find the service record of any of the 4th Lincs men transferred to the 1st Royal Lancs on 4 Sep 1916. Until I ended my ancestry subscription I was 35 for 35. Compared with less than 25% "finds" for 4th Lincs "originals"... Jim, I've found about 75% of 4th Lincolns that transferred to the 5th in 1918. But a far lower 30%ish of those who just served with the 5th throughout Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 6 March , 2009 Share Posted 6 March , 2009 Steve, I'd be interested in seeing if you (or Chris) had similar rates for the Lancs or Warwicks transfers. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 6 March , 2009 Share Posted 6 March , 2009 Hi Chris, Suggest its alphabetical, my grandfathers (Walter William Bowditch) records have survived but very badly burnt, however his son (Leonard Walter Bowditch) apparently do not. Maybe the flames got to that area before being extinguished david/canberra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 6 March , 2009 Share Posted 6 March , 2009 David, I don't have access to Ancestry but to prove your point might someone look up any of my four relatives who served overseas & all survived , or anyone of the same name. ie. Braddock? Just a thought. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 7 March , 2009 Share Posted 7 March , 2009 How long after the fire did anyone go back and look at the documents. As I'm sure they would have been more important things to do in the Second World War then looking at service records from the First World War. I also feel that more of the documents were destroyed because of water damage them were ever destroyed in the bombing and it was convenient for the War office/Ministry of Defence to blame the bombing, something which the National archives has carried on. I suspect that the documents were left damp for a couple of years before anyone did anything with them. If the documents were left in that condition, we're lucky to get what's left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 7 March , 2009 Share Posted 7 March , 2009 The records that are left of my family are generally in quite good condition so dont believe that water damage was an issue in their case. It is possible of course that some areas were water damaged and others not. Does anyone know to what extent the repository for WW1 records was damaged, and how long it took to relocate the surviving records - I would not have thought that it would have been done in quick time anyway. David/Canberra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 7 March , 2009 Share Posted 7 March , 2009 Hi Colin, If you give me the initials of your Braddock rels I will look them up for you. There are probably a lot more than four and I dont want to get off course if possible Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted 7 March , 2009 Share Posted 7 March , 2009 Taken Colins example of Braddock, on Ancestry there are 171 MIC's, 69 Service records and 33 pension records, so 110 service/ pension records survived out of a poss min of 171, you can then add the 29 records of SDGW. Regards Kevin. PS Of the six famliy records i have looked for ranged B,H and G, i have had the good luck to find five, four of where in very good condition and the fifth was burnt,water and smoke damaged. [ The one missing was a Royal Engineer, Died of wounds, all the others survived the war ]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 7 March , 2009 Share Posted 7 March , 2009 Good morning David. I apreciate there will be many more Braddocks, it is not an uncommon name, especially around the Manchester area. Anyway here are the basic details. Pte. James Braddock Cheshire Reg't. no 248893 Pte. Squire Braddock RWFusiliers.(can't read the no. on MIc.) Sgt. John Braddock RFA no. 37307 Pte. Fred braddock ASC If any records are available , I would apreciate any informetion, I would then be able to obtain such records I presume.? Thanks for your interest & hope it doesn't put you to any great trouble, I thought it might prove the point about the arrangements for keeping the records when they were blitzed. My regards. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 7 March , 2009 Share Posted 7 March , 2009 Thanks for the info. Kevin, you were very fortunate indeed to have recovered a large percentage of the records you required. Regarding the Braddocks , couldn't some of the pension records relate to some of the service records, ie. duplicated, or am I way off beam? I am not that familiar with the records /pensions etc. On a seperate matter how is Dave? Cheers. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted 7 March , 2009 Share Posted 7 March , 2009 Morning Colin, The service and Pension records at Ancestry as far as i am aware are seperate records. As for Dave he can be found ove at the WFA. Regards Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 7 March , 2009 Share Posted 7 March , 2009 Colin, I'll attend to yr request this evening (Aust time) am at present attending a series of meetings with the greatest bunch of forum people you could wish for at a get together in Canberra this weekend. regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 8 March , 2009 Share Posted 8 March , 2009 Colin, I have been able to find only one Braddock that may fit yr rels. He was Frederick Sidney Braddock T5/10247 ASC. In all there are 13 pages on that and all in excellent condition. The others were only noted on MIC James Braddock Cheshire ZRgt 243893. John Braddock RFA 37302. Squire Braddock 4924 and 291824 Royal Welsh Fusiliers. None of the last 3 have service records (intact anyway) It would seems to me that luck of the draw or the position of the files in the repository was mainly responsible for records that were either burnt or survived. David/Canberra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 8 March , 2009 Share Posted 8 March , 2009 Many thanks David, Yes that is the Fred Braddock , the oldest of the children, another member kindly located his name & you confirm such. I do have the Mics. for James. John, Squire but you confirm that records are burnt . It would appear that the system was not on a logical basis & as stated originally, just "the luck of the draw". Thanks again. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 8 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2009 Nah. It doesn't feel right. No War Office warehouse would not be organised on some logical basis, even if it was complex and, as someone said above, some minor "flaws" due to human nature or space restrictions. The effects of fire add a certain degree of randomness, but I am sure that with the full data, the right analytical approach and some mathematical modelling it would be possible to recreate the layout. There's a PhD in there for someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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