Location of Officer's Service Records

[dfaulder]

On another thread I mentioned this issue (amongst others) in trying to trace David Motherwell (T/Capt Royal Irish Rifles). I am reposting here to see if I can get some general guidance.

At the National Archives I was advised that if an officer's index number was preceeded by a "P" (In this case No P103598 - possibly P163598), it meant that he served after 1922 and his records would be at the MOD. As I am not the Next of Kin, this blocks my research. However, the website, http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_record..._records.html#5 states that for Army Officers commissioned prior to 1920, the records are at the National Archives and in the public domain. He was commissioned prior to 1920. Any idea where his records might be (and if at the NA) where I look (outside the two normal series)? I am awaiting an answer from MoD to a specific question as to whether they have his records (leaving the question of access to them to one side).

TIA

David

[annswabey]

The Army List would give you the date he left the Army. Other than the 2 "normal series",I'm not aware that there is anywhere else to look at TNA. Their research guide says that for an officer who served after 31 Mar 1922, the records will be with MOD.

[SteveE]

According to the London Gazette he appears to have relinquished his commission in 1920.

London Gazette #32034, 30 August 1920. Link to Gazette is Here

The undermentioned Lts. relinquish their commns. 1st Apr. 1920: —

3rd R. Ir. Rif.—D. Motherwell, and retains the rank of Lt.

Hope it helps.

Steve

[SteveE]

Looks like he rejoined in the Second War, which points to MOD having the records.

ROYAL ARMY PAY CORPS.

The undermentioned to be Lts. and Paymrs.:—

12th Oct. 1939:—

Lt. David MOTHERWELL (103598) (late R. Ir. Rif.).

Link to the Gazette is Here

Regards

Steve

[SFayers]

Hi David,

I've had a similar problem myself with one of my officers. Although the London Gazette has him relinquishing his commission in 1920, his papers aren't present at the NA. I contacted the MoD (mentioning the possibility that he joined up again at a later date) to be told that as his commission was relinquished in 1920 his documents would be at the NA - to be honest I don't think they even entertained the possibility of him rejoining or checked to see if he was even included in their records, so I'm still none the wiser!

Hope you have better luck!

Regards

Steve

[dfaulder]

Looks like he rejoined in the Second War, which points to MOD having the records.

ROYAL ARMY PAY CORPS.

The undermentioned to be Lts. and Paymrs.:—

12th Oct. 1939:—

Lt. David MOTHERWELL (103598) (late R. Ir. Rif.).

Steve (and others)

Thanks for these rapid replies; I was wondering whether he had rejoined (although I was thinking in terms of immediately after being demobbed, i.e. in the 1920s). I was blinded to a WW2 connection by a suggestion (elsewhere) that he died in the 1930s (of tuberculosis).

So I need to check that this is indeed the same man:

• Surname and Christian Names match
• Late (WW1) Regiment matches
• being a paymaster is possibly a legitimate role for someone who by then would be 45/46 (and who was an accountant in civilian life).

but:

• Is this record a record of him rejoining (or of a Lt being made a Lt and paymaster)*, or
• Is this a record relating to his nephew (b 1909 in Belfast) or a second cousin (b 1900 in Glasgow)?

* three pages back in the gazette, I see:

(p3/7475)

MEMORANDUM.

All commissions granted under the heading

of ' LAND FORCES, Emergency Commissions,'

which have appeared in the London

Gazette or supplements thereto, to be

REGULAR ARMY, Emergency Commissions.

REGULAR ARMY.

EMERGENCY COMMISSIONS.

which would indicate either a rejoining, or the commissioning of an existing OR (one of the above relatives). Presumably this can only be resolved by seeing the service file!

Searching the Gazette for someone who shares a surname with a town in Scotland is frustrating due to the large number of false matches (you cannot search with an exclusion on say Wishaw, because the man I want may be on the same page as someone else from Motherwell and Wishaw). Searching for "Motherwell" and "David" gives 124 matches between 1920 and 1946, only one of which looks good; without the "David", there are even more, but that search flushes out:

ROYAL ARMY PAY CORPS.

Lt. & Paymr. D. Motherwell (103598)

relinquishes his commn. on account of illhealth.

I9th June 1940.

Which would be consistent with an older soldier. Presumably such an announcement also means retirement from the army and not joining the ranks?

So, in respect of WW1 records, the fact that he rejoined later would over-ride the comment that the records of those commissioned pre 1920 are in the National Archives?

Thanks

David

[SteveE]

David

I think we can be confident that the David Motherwell (103598) is the same man.

The detail attached is from the NA's Officers' Services, Index to Long Number Papers (WO338) upto 1922. The NA site confirms that "The indexes also provide cross-references to the subsequent P (Personal) Numbers if the officer continued in service after April 1922 when the Long Number series was replaced"

You'll note the P prefixed number for D. Motherwell is the same as the one in the Gazette from 1939 onwards and that the 3/83 also tallies as that's 3rd Battalion Royal Irish Rifles.

I therefore believe that his WW1 service papers will be with his WW2 papers at the MOD.

Regards

Steve

[dfaulder]

>><<

You'll note the P prefixed number for D. Motherwell is the same as the one in the Gazette from 1939 onwards and that the 3/83 also tallies as that's 3rd Battalion Royal Irish Rifles.

I therefore believe that his WW1 service papers will be with his WW2 papers at the MOD.

>><<

Steve,

Many thanks - looks conclusive - now, why didn't I recognise the number when you first posted it! I saw the number and thought "Oh, so Officers got numbers in WW2 unlike in WW1" and yet I had already noted his index number in my first post.

But what is odd is the NA's quote you give (my emboldening):

"The indexes also provide cross-references to the subsequent P (Personal) Numbers if the officer

continued in service after April 1922

when the Long Number series was replaced"

,

And yet your first post found:

According to the London Gazette he appears to have relinquished his commission in 1920.

So, I would not at first have thought he "continued in service", but agree that per NA the papers will be with MOD - despite what Veterans UK says.

[SteveE]

David

I think it's a simple case of semantics. I see it that he did continue in service after 1922, albeit with what appears to be a 19 year break. It's agreed that the service was not continuous but is this possibly where the confusion between the two departments/agencies occurs?

Regards

Steve

[Chris_Baker]

I've discussed this with William Spencer at the NA on one or two occasions. It seems a complete mystery as to which records are public and which not. The MOD, probably, have the P records. But don't hold your breath if you apply.

[dfaulder]

Thanks all,

Dare I ask if anyone knows when this (MOD | Transfer Of Historic Service Personnel Records To The National Archives) is likely to come into effect?

David