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Remembered Today:

Sir Arthur Currie & the libel trial.


chris.wight

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From watching the CBC documentary "The Killing Ground" many years ago, I remember (to the best of my memory anyway) that it was implied that there may have been grounds for what had been printed in the newspapers against Sir Arthur Currie. Specifically they used exerpts from Will Bird's book which related the deaths of several men in his section during the attack on Mons by the 42nd Battalion.

What was the specific accusation levelled against Currie? I understand that Sir Sam Hughes or his son Garnet were responsible for these accusations appearing in print, and they certainly had their grudges against Currie. Apart from that the details are somewhat hazy in my memory.

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What was the specific accusation levelled against Currie? I understand that Sir Sam Hughes or his son Garnet were responsible for these accusations appearing in print, and they certainly had their grudges against Currie. Apart from that the details are somewhat hazy in my memory.

Hi Chris:

Here's a brief history: In June 1927 the Port Hope Evening Guide ran an unsigned editorial stating Currie had ordered the attack on Mons on November 11, 1918 so he could claim his troops had captured the first town lost by the Imperial troops in the war and that his boys had fired the last shots in the Great War. This was done, so the editorial stated "to glorify the Canadian Headquarters staff." "Thanks to this worse than drunken spree, Canadian troops who had survived the whole four years of war lie buried in Belgian cemeteries as a result of the glories of Mons."

Currie launched a court action against the owner/publisher of the Evening Guide as well as the man who wrote the editorial. The trial began on April 16, 1928 and ended on May 1, 1928. The jury (there was one dissenter) awarded damages to Currie of $500 plus costs. There was some comment at the time that although Currie had won the court case, the small amount of damages awarded, made him the loser.

Was Sir Sam Hughes or his son Garnet were responsible for these accusations appearing in print? Maybe. Sir Sam had attacked Currie in Parliament in 1919 over the same issue. And he certainly held a grudge against Currie for not promoting Garnet as a Division commander.

On a personal note, I've often wondered about Mons 1918. The Army commanders knew there was to be an Armistice and there was no way on earth the Germans would be allowed to hold ANY occupied territory. Was Mons worth the 32 Canadian lives on November 11, 1918? What do you think?

Garth

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Given the time and care that Currie took as a commander to do his job correctly on the Western FrontI wonder if it is unsafe to assume that he and his staff did it for the glory of either themselves or Canada?

It seems to me that in all his dealings with the realities of the WF front he did all he could not only to win the battle but to limit the causalties as best he could and thus did not want to waste life. That said he could have made an error of judgement. Did he ever state why he moved his men into Mons?

Intrigued

Arm.

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I do not have my references in front of me, but I remember that the facts of the Mons operation were brought out at the trial in some detail. There was no battle for Mons. The Germans were retreating through the town and the Canadians were merely sending patrols behind in order to maintain contact. The number of Canadian casualties on their entire front in the last few days was quite small. (The numbers were published, if only I could lay my hands on them!). We are talking single digits of killed and a few dozen wounded.

Notwithstanding the facts, Currie's reputation certainly suffered from the accusation. He had never cultivated his public image, and was thought a "cold fish" and quite capable of calousness. I can recall just a few years ago seeing some old vets being interviewed on television. One commented to the effect that "I never had use for Currie; he sent us over the top at Mons even though he knew the war was over."

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Thanks for the book title, Racing Teapots. Strangely enough, I had come across the title the previous day, and ordered it. I look forward to an interesting read.

Garth guess it was just a coincidence that Hughes home town of Lindsay is not far from Port Hope. ;) There are a number of questions I have from what you wrote. For example, why put out such an editorial in 1928, and not sooner after the war ended, say 1920? Or what prompted Currie to sue? - a libel trial is a viscious process with lots of "muckraking", and he must have been aware it could cause damage to his reputation. Besides Hughes had already attacked Currie in Parliament so what was different about this attack? Certainly the trial process had a negative effect on Currie's health. Would there have been as much made of what happened if it had been any other town besides one with the symbolism of Mons?

I was unaware the number of dead was 32 though I see jhill you mention losses were in the single digits. Is there disagreement over the number of casualties in this period in the official record?

Armourersergeant you are quite right in what you say about Currie's approach to fighting battles at the least cost in lives. So Mons does come across as something of an anomaly in his career.

Too bad Currie wasn't more charismatic, or possesed a common touch, like say a Louis Lipsett. Perhaps the opinion of his troops would have been different.

Personally I regard Currie as someone who developed into a first class General, probably the best Canadian one ever (better in my opinion than either Bert Hoffmeister or Guy Simons). I find it unfortunate the biography written by D G Dancocks has never been reprinted, nor that information about Currie seems to be next to impossible to find over the internet.

Garth you asked me if I thought Mons was worth 32 Canadian lives, and my answer would be no.

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Hi Chris:

What prompted Currie to sue?

I think Currie had finally reached the end of his patience. Friends advised him to forget about it; it would just fade away. However, Currie had suffered these kinds of accusation since late 1918 and he wanted this opportunity to clear his reputation.

Is there disagreement over the number of casualties in this period in the official record?

Not really. I've read numbers from 32 to 38 dead for the liberation of Mons. James is quite correct, the number for November 11 is one KIA. However, for the Mons operation of November 10th and 11th the numbers range from 32 to 38 dead. Quoting from Norm Christie's book "The Canadians at Cambrai: September - October 1918" page 84, Mons, The End Of The War "The last act of the Great War was to bury the last of the fallen. Canada had lost 34 men killed and 23 soldiers wounded on November 10th, 1918. One Canadian soldier was killed on November 11th, 1918. In a show of respect the citizens of Mons collected together the Canadians who had died there and with the utmost respect laid them to rest in Mons Cemetery."

For a great and electrifying account of the liberation of Mons read Will Bird's "Ghosts Have Warm Hands." I think you'll get a glimpse of what the men of the 42nd Battalion thought about Mons and Currie.

Personally I regard Currie as someone who developed into a first class General, probably the best Canadian one ever.

I couldn't agree with you more. Arthur Currie was solid commander and a brilliant strategist. I have a love/hate relationship with the General. I respect and admire his military abilities, but there were a couple of aspects of his career that have always left me wondering about the man himself. A couple of nagging questions.

Garth

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Hi All:

I did a quick check of the CWGC site and came up with 25 Canadians who died on November 10, 1918 and are buried the Mons Communal Cemetery:

BENNETT, W G S - Private - 757008 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

BRIGDEN, BENJAMIN - Private - 466663 - Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.) - 10/11/1918

BUTTIMER, J C - Private - 3231310 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

CADY, M - Private - 488415 - Royal Canadian Regiment - 10/11/1918

CHOWNS - Private - 3107824 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

CRONIN, P J Private - 507414 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

DAIGIE, J A - Private - 793792 - Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.) - 10/11/1918

DAVIDSON, SAMUEL - Private - 514572 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

FAIRLEY, J F - Corporal - 58156 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

FISHER, F G - Private - 916244 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

GERMAIN, RUSSELL LONGWORTH - Lieutenant - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

HALES, WILLIAM - Private - 124752 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

HOWARD, HERBERT - Private - 3032285 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

JENNINGS, CLIFFORD - Private - 3032328 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

JONES, BERNARD ROBERT - Lance Corporal - 418571 - Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.) - 10/11/1918

MALZARD, JOHN STANLEY - Private - 3032675 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

McFAUL, WESLEY CLARENCE - Lieutenant - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

MILLS, T - Private - 228793 - Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.) - 10/11/1918

MORRIS, C F - Private - 2138345 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

ROWLINSON, J J - Private - 675133 - Canadian Infantry (Western Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

SHEWFELT, G - Private - 3132565 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

SHIELDS, DONALD DE VERE - Lieutenant - Royal Canadian Regiment - 10/11/1918

SIMMONS, PERCY CLARENCE - Private - 3230347 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

SIMON, JOHN ABRAHAM - Corporal - 124732 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

SPENCER, J A - Private - 3030990 - Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

Note - 228793 Tom Mills was a friend of Will Bird. Tom's brother, Jim Mills, claimed Currie had murdered his brother and wanted to shoot Currie when he arrived at Mons.

Garth

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A little different spin on this. From an operational point of view, Currie and the Canadian Corps staff (as well as rank and file soldiers) knew the Germans were in retreat, but neither Currie nor anyone else below his rank in the Corps knew exactly how bad off the Germans were, nor that the end was imminent. In fact extensive planning for a campaign into 1919 was underway by the Allies. Currie could have been roundly condemned if he had not kept pressure on the retreating German forces. In many ways the accusations were more "political" and vindictive than on surface. In fact Hughes hid behind parliamentary privilege when he made the original comments, and deferred from making them outside of the legal protection offered by parliament. Some even suggest that the Port Hope artilce was really the work of Hughes and not the independent musings of the editor.

Currie apparently also believed the smear was as much against the Corps as it was against him.

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I'm probably wrong (and prepared to be shot down in flames) but wasn't it an armstice which came into place on the 11th, not an unconditional surrender. Therefore it would not be unreasonable for operations to continue to maintain contact with the enemy and occupy ground as possible, hopefully exercising caution. A more modern comparision is the action of British forces at the closing stages of the Falklands War, many sources mention a situation not far removed from a race between units to be the first into Port Stanley, the capital of the FI.

Ali

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Great thread, guys. I must say that Currie, warts and all, has always been a hero of mine as well.

Interesting the mention of the Canadian WW2 generals. Simmonds was really the only Canadian corps/army level commander Monty had any use for, and Hoffmeister was a brilliant divisional commander who went on to become a captain of industry. Isn't it odd that the politically adept bureaucrats like Foulkes and the very bright but totally uncharismatic Tommy Burns became more well known after the war. Only in Canada, you say!

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As to the timing of the suit, it could not be brought for statements made in parliament but could be outside such as editorial.

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Hi All:

Terry Denham was kind enough to provide me with a list of Mons cemeteries where Canadians are buried. These additional seven men take the number of CEF men KIA on November 10/11, 1918, during the Mons action, to 32. Some sources list the number of dead during the final two days at 38. That would mean up to six men are still to be found.

Cuesmes Communal Cemetery

CARLETON, PERCY WAINWRIGHT - Corporal - A/10970 - Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (Eastern Ontario Regt.) - 10/11/1918

Ghlin Communal Cemetery

GARVIN, W F Private - 3310498 - Canadian Machine Gun Corps - 10/11/1918

Jemappes Communal Cemetery

BURNSIDE, ALEXANDER - Private - 132890 - Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.) - 10/11/1918

LONGWORTH, FREDERICK JOHN - Lieutenant - Canadian Field Artillery - 10/11/1918

STANLEY, ARTHUR MILLS - Private - 132904 - Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.) - 10/11/1918

WELSH, W S - Private - 255230 - Canadian Machine Gun Corps - 10/11/1918

St. Symphorien Military Cemetery

PRICE, GEORGE LAWRENCE - Private - 256265 - Canadian Infantry (Saskatchewan Regt.) - 11/11/1918*

*According to Ted Wigney's 'C.E.F. Roll of Honour' 256265 George Lawrence Price was the last Canadian KIA in the Great War.

Garth

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Bill - I agree with each of your points. Your "operational point of view" was one of the reasons Currie stated Mons had to be occupied by the Allies.

Ali - You're correct, it was an Armistice (suspension of hostilities) not an unconditional surrender.

On November 10, everyone from the generals down to the infantry privates knew the war was coming to a quick end. The word had gotten out. Negotiations for the Armistice began in late October 1918. Foch and the Allies met the German Armistice Commission on November 8, presented a strict set of conditions and gave the Germans 72 hours to accept without any substantive changes to the document. The Kaiser abdicated on November 9. At 5:00 A.M., November 11, 1918 all parties signed the document. At 11:00 A.M. all hostilities ceased.

The point I'd like to put forward is someone as high up the food chain, as Arthur Currie was, HAD to know at least the basic terms of the Armistice. The Germans would withdraw from all occupied territory on a set timetable. The Allied troops would follow one days march behind the retreating Germans. This being the case, did Currie have to order the liberation of Mons beginning November 10?

Garth

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Thanks everyone for your replies; they have helped broaden my perspective on Currie, and Mons.

Garth that's excellent work listing all those names. It puts a human face on those killed in action so near the end.

Terry too true!

When I took Canadian history in high school, there was the perfunctory mention of Vimy Ridge, but never any mention made of Currie. At University I learned that Sir Arthur Currie was the name of a sports facility at McGill. It wasn't until I read Pierre Berton's "Vimy" that I learned who Currie was. I hope things have changed these days.

PS - I got the three books I ordered from CEF books today (Outstanding service from them - delivery just three days) - Will Bird's "Ghosts Have Warm Hands"; Alexander McClintock's "Best O'Luck; and "The Last Day, The Last Hour; The Currie Libel Trial"

Oh happy reading this weekend! :D

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Hi everyone! I wondered if I could figure out who the six missing men were. I wasn't sure what battalions were in actions so I checked Garth's list of KIA to get the battalion numbers, thinking maybe I could find out from the war diaries who may have been missed.

I believe the missing men are from the RCR (2) - diary lists 1 officer, and 3 other ranks KIA (RCR diary), and PPCLI(4) - diary lists 5 other ranks KIA (PPCLI diary). Unfortunately I couldn't find any names.

November 10th

18th Bn

ROWLINSON, J J - Private - 675133

19th Bn

BUTTIMER, J C - Private - 3231310

CHOWNS - Private - 3107824

CRONIN, P J Private - 507414

HALES, WILLIAM - Private - 124752

HOWARD, HERBERT - Private - 3032285

JENNINGS, CLIFFORD - Private - 3032328

MALZARD, JOHN STANLEY - Private - 3032675

McFAUL, WESLEY CLARENCE - Lieutenant

SHEWFELT, G - Private - 3132565

SIMON, JOHN ABRAHAM - Corporal - 124732

20th Bn

BENNETT, W G S - Private - 757008

DAVIDSON, SAMUEL - Private - 514572

FAIRLEY, J F - Corporal - 58156

FISHER, F G - Private - 916244

GERMAIN, RUSSELL LONGWORTH - Lieutenant

MORRIS, C F - Private - 2138345

SIMON, JOHN ABRAHAM - Corporal - 124732

SPENCER, J A - Private - 3030990

42nd Bn

BRIGDEN, BENJAMIN - Private - 466663

BURNSIDE, ALEXANDER - Private - 132890

DAIGLE, J A - Private - 793792

JONES, BERNARD ROBERT - Lance Corporal - 418571

MILLS, T - Private - 228793

STANLEY, ARTHUR MILLS - Private - 132904

PPCLI

CARLETON, PERCY WAINWRIGHT - Corporal - A/10970 (410970)

RCR

CADY, M - Private - 488415

SHIELDS, DONALD DE VERE - Lieutenant

3rd Cdn Machine Gun Corps

GARVIN, W F Private - 3310498

WELSH, W S - Private - 255230

9th Bde CFA

LONGWORTH, FREDERICK JOHN - Lieutenant

November 11th

28th Bn

PRICE, GEORGE LAWRENCE - Private - 256265

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I believe the missing men are from the RCR (2) - diary lists 1 officer, and 3 other ranks KIA (RCR diary), and PPCLI(4) - diary lists 5 other ranks KIA (PPCLI diary). Unfortunately I couldn't find any names.

Hi Chris:

Good piece of detective work my dear Watson. It would be nice if we could put names to these six men.

In another thread (here) Terry Denham suggested some of the men could be listed as 'Unknowns' or they were reported missing. In Nicholson's history (page 482) he states: "Official post-war calculations of Canadians killed, wounded and missing, including casualties from gas, show a total of 18 officers and 262 other ranks for the final two days of operations." This would suggest some (or all) of these six men weren't found and are remembered on the Menin Gate Memorial.

If we can't find an easy way to find out who these me are, I'll go entry by entry through the PPCLI Nominal Roll looking for November 10/11 casualties. I'm hoping this is a last resort. Anyone have a RCR Nominal Roll listing disposition of men?

Garth

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Great Thread!! I have always liked Currie and feel that had he been American or British he would known as a Hero.

I some ways he can be said to be the Grandfather of "modern" infantry tactics. When you read about the type of training the Canadian Corps went through for the attack on Vimy, you can see how he modified the old concepts.

The old Court House in Port Hope has been refurbished and still stands on the main Street.

One other thing, Will Bird states that he and his men knew about the the Wars ending on Nov 10th, He says they knew the War had only a few hours left and couldn't understand why they had to attack Mons. His account mentions Street fighting past the RR station and into the city. I wonder how many Allied Soldiers were aware the war would be over the day before it was?

Dean

Whitby Ontario

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Garth you have been a busy fellow haven't you! :D

This might be a naive suggestion but since both the RCR, and PPCLI are regular regiments, wouldn't they have a PR/History Officer we could check directly with?

After last night's post I checked through the other unit diaries till my eyes started to take on the shape of my monitor.

Looking at the unit diaries of those battalions involved gave me 43 KIA, 156 WIA, and 3 MIA for the 10/11 Nov.

There are some discrepancies/possible errors I'd like to point out. The numbers of KIA for the 19th, and 20th Bns are different but I think it may have been the Battalion numbers may have been incorrectly attributed (they are both Central Ontario) - there is one extra KIA when both are combined. Rereading the 42nd's diary I found I had confused the four men wounded at Jemappes who died later from wounds with those who died in Mons, so the 42nd suffered 10 KIA. As for the PPCLI, the casualties are marked on the margin opposite the 10/11th, but thinking about it some of the casualties could have been incurred on the 9th. The same could be said for the RCR since the casualties are listed at the end of an operations summary for the 9, 10, & 11th - they did run into heavy machine gun positions during the morning of the 10th coming into Mons though. Garth sorry if I have headed you in the wrong direction. Finally, the diary for the 3rd CMGC doesn't mention any casualties for the drive to Mons, but they are listed at the Canadian Virtual War Memorial. All I can suggest is the missing men could also be from the 42nd, or 19th/20th Central Ontario Bns

Just to summarise what I found with a link to the relevant diary page (for those who'd like to check up on my tired eyes :D ) :

18th Bn

1 KIA, 10 WIA,

Bn diary

19th Bn

7 KIA, 43 WIA, 2MIA

Bn diary

20th Bn

12 KIA, 30 WIA

Bn diary

42nd Bn

6 KIA, 6WIA ----- Jemappes

Bn diary

4 KIA ------------- Mons

Bn diary

PPCLI

5 KIA, 43 WIA

Bn diary

RCR

4 KIA, 21 WIA, 1 MIA

Bn diary

3rd Cdn Machine Gun Corps

2 KIA

Bn diary

9th Bde CFA

1 KIA, 3 WIA

bn diary

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Some years ago I bought a book in the French Ardennes called 'Dying on the 11th November' which proved that the French had launched an attack on 11.11.18, but the dead had their dates of death officially changed to the 10th November to 'cover up' this fact. The 'Killing Ground' documentary from 1987 claimed this to be the case with the CEF.

Any thoughts?

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Hi Chris:

I've taken Terry Denham's advice and have e-mailed the CWGC requesting a list of names for those Canadians killed on November 10 and 11. I think there's a good chance we'll get the list in a week or two. The 2nd and 3rd Divisions were involved in the capture of Mons, so that should narrow it down. I'll keep you posted.

The 7th Brigade was assigned the task of entering the city. According to Nicholson there was rather a spirited controversy as to who reached the centre on Mons first, the CRC or 42nd Battalion.

Paul - I find it a little odd that according to Nicholson, "Careful research made at General Currie's request revealed that on 11 November itself, there were one fatal and 15 non-fatal casualties." Why would Currie want these figures? Could he sense trouble brewing?

Garth

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Paul that was what I remembered about the documentary, specifically through what was discussed about Will Bird's book. Could you relate a few details about the incident you mentioned?

Garth, I look forward to hearing about your results from the CWGC.

In the meantime I've been doing some more reading of War diaries, and tonight decided to look at the 3rd, and 2nd Divisions' diaries from Nov. 10/11.

The 3rd Division diary is more detailed, and gave a detailed breakdown of casualties per day, per battalion for November while the 2nd did not (at least I've not seen anything so far).

According to the War Diary - Report, 3rd Division link , the number of casualties for Nov. 11th, 1918 was :

2 Off/12 O.R KIA; 6 Off/74 O.R. WIA; 2 O.R. MIA

The breadown per unit was :

Diary link the for Bns below

RCR

1 Off/3 O.R. KIA; 3 Off/20 O.R. WIA; 1 O.R. MIA

PPCLI

2 O.R. KIA; 7 O.R. WIA; 1 O.R. MIA

42 Bn

6 O.R. KIA; 1 Off/18 O.R. WIA

49th Bn

4 O.R. WIA

Diary link for Bns below

4th CMR

2 Off/2 O.R. WIA

116th Bn

1 O.R. WIA

Diary link for Bns below

8th Bde CFA

6 O.R. WIA

9th Bde CFA

1 Off/1 O.R. KIA; 2 O.R. WIA

Diary link for Bns below

3rd Bn CMGC

1 Off/9 O.R. WIA

My tally doesn't agree for total for wounded - 7 Off/69 WIA.

This page gives Officer casualties by name, link, and you'll see no officers are listed as dying on the 11th.

Garth what do you make of all this?

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Hi Chris:

The numbers are somewhat confusing and I'm not really surprised they don't add up. I'm hoping the CWGC will send us the list soon; this may be the only way we can untie this knot.

Today I checked the 42nd Battalion's history (not mine :( ) and for the Mons operation it lists only two men KIA on the 10th (L/Cpl. Jones and Pte. Mills) and none on the 11th. I've started to go through the histories in my library and I'm been jotting down a few notes on the Mons casualties.

I appreciate all the time you've spent pouring through the diaries.

Garth

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Hi Garth, that's interesting that the battalion history only lists two KIA.

(I was browsing several used books sites tonight, and came across two copies of Topp's book - afraid both places the book was outside my price range.)

There is a real wealth of information in the 3rd Division's diary - shame the attached maps are virtually illegible. They did have attached news clippings from a Mons newspaper, and I thought maybe they would mention names/numbers of casualties but they didn't. I've enjoyed looking through the diaries.

Like you said, the CWGC list will help.

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Hi Garth,

I was reading Sharpe's book on the Currie libel trial, and came up with another name for the list :

JOYCE, Frederick William - Private - 58085 - 20th Bn (Central Ontario) - 11/11/18

His father was at the trial as a witness for the defence, and they entered a letter, inot evidence, he received from a Chaplain expressing his sympathies at his son being killed on the last day of the war. The middle initial was incorrect, as was the service number given in the letter.

Since he was buried at Auberchichort British Cemetery, I thought to check if there were other Canadians buried here. I found out the village had been captured in Oct 1918, and several Canadian Casualty Clearing Stations had been situated nearby.

I found these men :

Nov 10/18

WITHROW, John James - Private - 534497 - Cdn Army Medical Corps

Nov 11/18

HOLLIDAY, William Stanley - Private - 622730 - Cdn Army Service Corps (4th Div M.T. Coy)

LANDSKY, John G - Corporal - 40069 - Cdn Army Service Corps (3rd Div train)

LEACH, Robert James - Private - 3133054 - 47th Bn (Western Ontario)

SLADE, Cyril - Corporal - 57505 - 20th Bn (Central Ontario)

PS Garth, I've seen you posted info on the MacKay/McKay thread. One of the witnesses for the defence was a John McKay, a signaller with a machine gun battalion. Following the armistice, he went into Mons with two friends, and reported seeing three dead Canadians, and two Germans ready for burial in white wooden boxes.

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