old-ted Posted 30 January , 2009 Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Hello to all, I'm sure one of you can assist with a question. I am researching a soldier who was kept in hiding by a French family from 26th August 1914 until he was betrayed on 10th September 1916. He was then held in a German prison (Kassel) until the war ended. He was released on 2nd December 1918 and returned to Glasgow via Cologne. In suh a case, what inforation would the army have sent to his family? Would he have been listed as missing? Would he, after a period of time have been presumed dead? Any thoughts would be helpful particularly if other similar cases are known and recorded by the famly. (Mods; If this should be in POW section please move) Regards. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDP1955 Posted 30 January , 2009 Share Posted 30 January , 2009 I'm sure one of you can assist with a question. I am researching a soldier who was kept in hiding by a French family from 26th August 1914 until he was betrayed on 10th September 1916. He was then held in a German prison (Kassel) until the war ended. He was released on 2nd December 1918 and returned to Glasgow via Cologne. In suh a case, what inforation would the army have sent to his family? Would he have been listed as missing? Would he, after a period of time have been presumed dead? Any thoughts would be helpful particularly if other similar cases are known and recorded by the famly. Hi John I cant help you with your query about what the family will have been told, but this situation could be more common than any of us think! My great uncle was hiding in some sort of drainage hole in Belgium when he was found by a local girl who gave him bread and water He ended up staying with her family and married the girl. He lived in Belgium for the rest of his life and became a valuable member of the community that helped him, employing some of them in the business he started after the war I guess my relative won't be in any war statistics D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 30 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Hi John I cant help you with your query about what the family will have been told, but this situation could be more common than any of us think! My great uncle was hiding in some sort of drainage hole in Belgium when he was found by a local girl who gave him bread and water He ended up staying with her family and married the girl. He lived in Belgium for the rest of his life and became a valuable member of the community that helped him, employing some of them in the business he started after the war I guess my relative won't be in any war statistics D Hi D. Sounds like another terrific story & I'd love to know more about your Great Uncle. Perhaps you could pm me. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREEN_S22@SKY.COM Posted 30 January , 2009 Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Hello to all, I'm sure one of you can assist with a question. I am researching a soldier who was kept in hiding by a French family from 26th August 1914 until he was betrayed on 10th September 1916. He was then held in a German prison (Kassel) until the war ended. He was released on 2nd December 1918 and returned to Glasgow via Cologne. In suh a case, what inforation would the army have sent to his family? Would he have been listed as missing? Would he, after a period of time have been presumed dead? Any thoughts would be helpful particularly if other similar cases are known and recorded by the famly. (Mods; If this should be in POW section please move) Regards. John Hi John, i was wondering same as you because my father was named after an uncle who he said had died in the war,he was born in 1917 my father,but the only joseph, which his is name,was captured by the germans in 1914 29th october,and spent all the war as prisoner till 1918.Just wondering wether they were told he was dead,hence the name.The only uncle of his that did die, was in the Boer War,and he was called john anyway,puzzled. Bian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 31 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2009 Joseph11 & DianneD. It sounds as though there were a lot of families who were in the same position. I would be interested to learn more of your great uncle's adventures. I hope that someone can come up with a suggestion as to what the families would have been told. How long, after being posed as missing, was a "presumed killed, or dead" telegramme sent to the family? Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 This sort of ties into a question I asked a while ago - how long was a soldier missing before being declared dead? The same problem (arising from a different cause) occured from sometime in 1917 when the Germans would use recently captured prisoners as forced labour in the batle area and delay registering them as prisoners with the Red Cross. A man could disapear for over a year this way. I never did find out just how long it was before missing became officially dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 31 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2009 This sort of ties into a question I asked a while ago - how long was a soldier missing before being declared dead? The same problem (arising from a different cause) occured from sometime in 1917 when the Germans would use recently captured prisoners as forced labour in the batle area and delay registering them as prisoners with the Red Cross. A man could disapear for over a year this way. I never did find out just how long it was before missing became officially dead. Perhaps there is no definitive answer to this one and it varied from case to case. It must have come as great news if a lad was missing for such a long time then turns up as a POW. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 Perhaps there is no definitive answer to this one and it varied from case to case. It must have come as great news if a lad was missing for such a long time then turns up as a POW. John And a bit of a shock if he has been reported dead and his wife has remarried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 Ted, I would hope they said "Good News" to the family ! But seriously, I have a feeling that this story has been told by Ben McIntyre, A Foreign Field, Harper Collins, 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 It might have been possible for the person in hiding to get word to his family through a neutral country but I can see problems. Might not the Red Cross require evidence? That might be tricky for a man in hiding. How secure was the post in the occupied areas? I think he would be reported missing, since that was what he was. I suspect that it may have been the family who would move to have a missing man presumed dead. Perhaps for fiscal reasons. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that many families never accepted that a man posted missing was in fact dead. The recurring stories of the men we have heard of here, giving them false hope that their son, brother, husband was alive, suffering amnesia in a hospital and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 31 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2009 Ted, I would hope they said "Good News" to the family ! But seriously, I have a feeling that this story has been told by Ben McIntyre, A Foreign Field, Harper Collins, 2002 The lad I'm researching is David Cruickshank (1st Cameronians) who gets a very brief mention in "A Foreign Field". Those interested can read part of his story here; http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/anderson.htm Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 John I really enjoyed your article. Thanks for posting the link. Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 1 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2009 John I really enjoyed your article. Thanks for posting the link. Regards Mel Hi Mel, thanks for taking the time to read it & glad you enjoyed it. I would still be interested to know of anyone can give an answer to the original question Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDP1955 Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Sounds like another terrific story & I'd love to know more about your Great Uncle. Perhaps you could pm me. I have written up the stories of a number of my family that fought and survived the war. This one though, with probably the most interesting story I havent done the write-up for. I've currently got my mother looking through all her photo's to try and find some of Great Uncle Charley apart from the wedding photos which I already have. I do know though, that his future wife, Emily, fed him in a hole in the ground during the war and her parents helped to keep him hidden. He remained hidden for the entire war and married Emily just after the war, in Belgium. Due to my great uncles nationality being English, they fled Belgium at the start of WW2 and lived in London for the duration. That means somewhere along the line, in maybe 30 years time, I may find them on the English census again I guess I need to find info on the activities of the 10th London Regiment and line up thier movements with thier arrival local to the village where Charley spent his war. Sadly no service papers on Ancestry to help me!! D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Hi Mel, thanks for taking the time to read it & glad you enjoyed it. I would still be interested to know of anyone can give an answer to the original question Regards John He would have been reported as missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 >><< Due to my great uncles nationality being English, they fled Belgium at the start of WW2 and lived in London for the duration. That means somewhere along the line, in maybe 30 years time, I may find them on the English census again Have you checked the BT phone book collection (On Ancestry)?; if the surname was unusual you may be able to spot him. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 1 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2009 He would have been reported as missing. Thanks Tom, I just wondered if there was a formal time span after which the authorities considered the missing soldier must have been killed. Thanks for all replies. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDP1955 Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Have you checked the BT phone book collection (On Ancestry)?; if the surname was unusual you may be able to spot him. Hi David I never thought about this! The surname is fairly unusual - ATTLEY, so a fair chance of a hit! He lived in London though, but I'll give it a go! Dianne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 1 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Hi David I never thought about this! The surname is fairly unusual - ATTLEY, so a fair chance of a hit! He lived in London though, but I'll give it a go! Dianne Dianne, why don't you post his details here and see what responses you get. Their a great lot on the forum! Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDP1955 Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 why don't you post his details here and see what responses you get. Their a great lot on the forum! Thanks John, I'll post him on the 'Soldiers' section. His name is Charles Edward Attley of the 10th London Regiment! Dianne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 2 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2009 Have any other pals got further info on missing soldiers eventually being listed as dead. Regards to all John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 2 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2009 And here is the man himself with his beloved Aimee. When you see her it's easy to realise why he went back to Le Cateau. And according to her grandson she was a wonderful woman. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micks Posted 3 February , 2009 Share Posted 3 February , 2009 John A interesting thread Have you done any work in the cemeteries around Le cateau regarding this issue? If we except some of the dates (January-May 1915) one wonders how many others were not as lucky as your man. Captain C H Bass Lancashire Fusililiers was reported wounded and missing after Le Cateau. Not until March 1915 was information provided which reported UNOFFICIALLY that he had died of wounds on the 26th of August 1914. I have read accounts of widows receiving pensions after 6 months of a man reported as missing but I can,t supply a War Office official procedure. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-ted Posted 4 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2009 Hi Mick, sorry for the delay in replying. I have searched SDGW and can find no Cameronians killed before October 1914. It seems odd as the war diary states; "Since the 22nd August the Battn. has marched every day & very frequently at nights as well & starts have always been very early, preventing men getting a proper meal before starting. Rations have been scarce especially corn for the horses. Men are quite worn out & on the 29th 221 men were reported missing." Today (2nd Sept) the number is reduced to 186. Some of those 186 must surely have been casualties. Most of the burials I've foung in Le Cateau are from much later in the war. Going back there to trawl through the cemeteries later this year. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micks Posted 5 February , 2009 Share Posted 5 February , 2009 John Although my angle on ww1 is the BEF in 1914 I have done little work on the 19th brigade. I have a map outlining the cemeteries between Mons and the Marne which contain British burials from that year.I,ve placed it against their known line of retreat from the Conde canel through Solesmes and away with the Fourth Division after the 26th. I had a very quick look through some of the major cemeteries on that line and you are wright there appears to be few known graves for the Cameronians. The official history has casualties for the 19th Brigade , 23-25th August 93 killed and wounded ,26-27th August 585 killed and wounded so its most likely the vast majority of your men later returned to the battalion. The only officer that I can find who died before October is a Captain D S Gilkison 20.9.14 and he is buried in Vendreese British Cemetery. This is another area where Geoff,s search engine would come in handy. If you are going to continue your work on British soldiers trapped behind German lines after the retreat from Le Cateau look at the following cemteries which contain 1915 burials. Fontaine-au-Pire, Cambrai Porte-de-Paris and Ligny-en-cambresis Ligny for me is particularly interesting as it contains Lieutenant Chisholm of the East Lanc`s. The first Australian killed in the war. I,m not saying that these groups of graves are of soldiers who were shot after the retreat .They may have died of wounds or while being used as labour but nevertheless they are interesting. I don,t know if you use the following website inmemories.com but I find it useful to look through cemeteries before field work. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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