Pte FW Jones 45093 Leicestershire Regiment, 617351 2nd/19th London Reg

[Guest leicetershirejones]

Hi,

I came here to see if anybody can give me any information about my grandfather, Frank William Jones. He survived the war but died before I was born.

I have some information, but my two main problems are that I don't know which battalion of the Leicestershire Regiment he was in and I don't know when he joined the London Regiment. His medal roll details give no clues.

I have a photograph (attd, he's in the centre, slightly faded) of him and two other soldiers wearing arab headgear, which I assume is from when he joined the London regiment as the regiment served in Syria, but all three are wearing a dark coloured square on their collars, which suggests to me that they may be in their old uniforms and that it's Leics battle insignia of the 6,7 or 8th battalion.

He attested for the Leicestershire Regiment on 12/04/17 (according to his transfer to reserve certificate from the London Regiment, 31/12/19) and was given number 45093. Is it possible from these meagre pickings to determine his battalion?

A 2nd/19th London Regiment pass from 10/06/19 (stamped 5 Cavalry Divn) still gives his Leicestershire number for some reason, though I believe he may have joined several months earlier, as he kept a War Illustrated page for 04/01/19 showing troops in Beirut. His 2nd/19th number, 617351, is quite high compared to those in the casualty lists.

He said that he had served in trenches at some point and he also said that he was made to do extra service after the war as a punishment for lying about his age. This may or may not be true, but different official documents give two different birth years for him. One would make him 18 at attestation, the other 19.

Any info would be gratefully received.

[Paul Nixon]

Welcome to the forum, leicestershirejones.

There are service records in the WO 363 series (and probably WO 364 series as well) which would appear to be similar to that of your grandfather. I've only checked a couple and here are the summaries:

1. Edward Noel Carver

Attests with Leics Regt on 20th May 1916. Mobilised on 24th Nov 1916 and given the number 34223. Serves overseas with the Leics Regt (India, Egypt, Palestine, Syria). Returns to the UK. Transferred to the Middx Regt on 1st June 1919 but immediately posted to the 2/19th London Regt and given the number 617372.

2. Sydney Harold Cheeseman

Attests with Leics Regt on 10th Dec 1915 (Derby Scheme). Mobilised 21st Nov 1916 and given the number 34178. Serves overseas with the Leics Regt (India, Egypt, Palestine, Syria). Returns to the UK. Transferred to the Middx Regt on 4th June 1919 but immediately posted to the 2/19th London Regt and given the number 617437.

I'd suggest that your grandfather's service followed a similar pattern and that therefore the photo you have posted (great photo by the way) was taken when he was with the Leics Regt and that he was transferred to the 2/19th Londons between 1st and 4th June 1919.

Paul

[Guest leicetershirejones]

Welcome to the forum, leicestershirejones.

There are service records in the WO 363 series (and probably WO 364 series as well) which would appear to be similar to that of your grandfather. I've only checked a couple and here are the summaries:

1. Edward Noel Carver

Attests with Leics Regt on 20th May 1916. Mobilised on 24th Nov 1916 and given the number 34223. Serves overseas with the Leics Regt (India, Egypt, Palestine, Syria). Returns to the UK. Transferred to the Middx Regt on 1st June 1919 but immediately posted to the 2/19th London Regt and given the number 617372.

2. Sydney Harold Cheeseman

Attests with Leics Regt on 10th Dec 1915 (Derby Scheme). Mobilised 21st Nov 1916 and given the number 34178. Serves overseas with the Leics Regt (India, Egypt, Palestine, Syria). Returns to the UK. Transferred to the Middx Regt on 4th June 1919 but immediately posted to the 2/19th London Regt and given the number 617437.

I'd suggest that your grandfather's service followed a similar pattern and that therefore the photo you have posted (great photo by the way) was taken when he was with the Leics Regt and that he was transferred to the 2/19th Londons between 1st and 4th June 1919.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the information. I tried to access the WO363 series (via Ancestry) but found it difficult to get any meaningful results using their search engine.

I've now found Edward Carver's record on Ancestry but I'm not sure the entry for service in India and the Middle East is related to the Leicestershire Regiment, but instead the 2/19th London, as I've not previously found any reference to service for the Leics Rgmt in that part of the world around that time, whereas the 2/19th certainly did go there.

edit : I've been reliably informed that the 2nd Battalion Leics did indeed go to India and the Middle East.

Can anybody elaborate on this?

[Guest leicetershirejones]

My apologies Paul, you were quite right.

It would seem that my grandfather was in the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire (which was merged into the 2/19th in 1919) and did indeed serve in those locations.

My thanks for your help.

[Charles Fair]

I will have a dig around my database and see if I can add anything. Paul's deductions look good though. I just checked the 2/19th war diary and it says on 2 June that "34 ORs rejoined the battalion from Hama". Perhaps he was one of those.

[Guest leicetershirejones]

I will have a dig around my database and see if I can add anything. Paul's deductions look good though. I just checked the 2/19th war diary and it says on 2 June that "34 ORs rejoined the battalion from Hama". Perhaps he was one of those.

Does this help make sense of it? 45093 is his Leics number. It's also stamped 5 Cavalry Divn.

[Paul Nixon]

My apologies Paul, you were quite right.

It would seem that my grandfather was in the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire (which was merged into the 2/19th in 1919) and did indeed serve in those locations.

My thanks for your help.

No worries, if anybody can help your with more info on the 2/19th Londons, it will be Charles. Good luck with your research.

I'm a little curious as to why the two men I mentioned previously, were transferred first to the Middx Regt and then immediately posted to the 19th Londons. The 19th Londons did have Middx Regiment connections (they were formerly the 17th Middlesex (North Middlesex) Volunteer Rifles Corps before the 19th London Regiment was born in 1908). I have seen similar transfers in 1919, men transferred to The Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment but then immediately posted to the 24th London's. Maybe just coincidence; I need to do more digging round the 1919 London TF numbers.

Paul

[Charles Fair]

It would seem that my grandfather was in the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire (which was merged into the 2/19th in 1919) and did indeed serve in those locations.

leicetershirejones - he was definitely with the 2nd Leicesters. I have checked his entry in the 19th London BW&VM Rolls and this is what it says

617351 Pte. JONES Frank 2/Leic.R. Pte 45093 4(b ) 23.1.18 to 11.11.18

The London Regt rolls are the best in that they give all units, theatres and dates in which a man served overseas until 11/11/1918. His entry means that he served in theatre 4(b ) - i.e. Egypt - with the 2nd Leicesters from 23 Jan 1918 until the Armistice. He did not have overseas service before then.

Unfortunately the rolls cease recording dates after the Armistice. However, on looking closely at the rolls I can see that he was one of a batch of about 235 men who served with the 2 Leicester until the Armistice. The first is 617271 Pte. Albert Bertie Brown who was Pte 32461 and whose dates are 4(b ) 23.1.18 to 11.11.18. The last is 617505 S/Sgt Leslie Joseph Greenleaf 45051 4(b ) 21.1.18 to 11.11.18

The fact that they appear on the 19th London rolls and not the Leicesters implies a transfer to the 2/19th after the Armistice. Paul's research would appear to have uncovered when that happened.

[Charles Fair]

I'm a little curious as to why the two men I mentioned previously, were transferred first to the Middx Regt and then immediately posted to the 19th Londons. The 19th Londons did have Middx Regiment connections (they were formerly the 17th Middlesex (North Middlesex) Volunteer Rifles Corps before the 19th London Regiment was born in 1908). I have seen similar transfers in 1919, men transferred to The Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment but then immediately posted to the 24th London's.

Paul, that's because the 19th Londons, along with the 7th Londons, were affiliated to the Middx. This became more formalised from sometime in late 1916. As far as posting was concerned, men could be posted freely between the three and kept their numbers as they were considered to be part of the same corps. I found nearly 1,000 men who served in a battalion of the 19th in the Middx Regt medal rolls. A number of men in the 19th Rolls served at some point with the Middx and had Middx numbers, even when they were with a battalion of the 19th.

This is explained more clearly about 1/4 pf the way down the following page on the LLT: TF infantry renumbering in 1917

You should see the same pattern with the Queens RWS and the 22nd and 24th Londons. Ditto the E Surreys and 21 and 23rd Londons.

[Guest leicetershirejones]

leicetershirejones - he was definitely with the 2nd Leicesters. I have checked his entry in the 19th London BW&VM Rolls and this is what it says

617351 Pte. JONES Frank 2/Leic.R. Pte 45093 4(b ) 23.1.18 to 11.11.18

The London Regt rolls are the best in that they give all units, theatres and dates in which a man served overseas until 11/11/1918. His entry means that he served in theatre 4(b ) - i.e. Egypt - with the 2nd Leicesters from 23 Jan 1918 until the Armistice. He did not have overseas service before then.

Unfortunately the rolls cease recording dates after the Armistice. However, on looking closely at the rolls I can see that he was one of a batch of about 235 men who served with the 2 Leicester until the Armistice. The first is 617271 Pte. Albert Bertie Brown who was Pte 32461 and whose dates are 4(b ) 23.1.18 to 11.11.18. The last is 617505 S/Sgt Leslie Joseph Greenleaf 45051 4(b ) 21.1.18 to 11.11.18

The fact that they appear on the 19th London rolls and not the Leicesters implies a transfer to the 2/19th after the Armistice. Paul's research would appear to have uncovered when that happened.

This information is extremely useful. Thanks to both of you for your help. I know from Maj. FW Eames' history of the 2/19th that they were merged with the 2nd Battalion Leics on March 24th 1919.

I have also obtained the following from user "1 IG" (who has kindly assisted me) based on the Leicestershire war diaries:

if your grandfather did not attest until April 1917 that would put him in the Middle East possibly August 1917, he must therefore have arrived in Mesopotamia to join the 2^nd Leicestershire Regiment, but would have shortly been embarking for Egypt and Palestine where it arrived in January 1918, it immediately entered operations in Palestine on the sea coast just north of Jaffa, where it remained until September 1918, when it took part in General Allenby's advance. The Battalion marched to Samaria, Haifa, Acre, Tyre, Sidon, Beirut, Tripoli, Homs and Hama, an advance of 250 miles when the Armistice was signed.

On Armistice day the strength of the Battalion was 31 officers and 521 NCO's and men. Though the war was over drafts continued to arrive bringing the strength up to 37 officers and 940 NCO's and men. In December demobilisation began in earnest, the Battalion were now in billets in Homs. Most men were sent to the demobilisation camp at Kantara. During March, 28 officers and 235 other ranks were transferred to the 2^nd/19^th Battalion London Regiment to form the Composite Battalion of the 28^th Infantry Brigade. By the end of the month the 2^nd Battalion Leicestershire Regiment had almost ceased to exist except in Cadre strength of 5 officers and 46 NCO's and men, and these accompanied by the remaining 87 men remaining to be demobilized entrained on the 30^th March for Port Said.

All of this is slowly starting to fit together.

thanks for all the help,

Mark

(dang it, just noticed I spelled my user name incorrectly!)

[Charles Fair]

Good idea to check the 2/19th History. This is what is written in the 2/19th War Diary. It gives the date of the transfer as the 23rd.

Homs March 23

Voluntary Church parade under battalion arrangements. Undemobilised portion of 2nd Leicestershire Regt taken over. Bn reorganised. Divided into No. 1 Double Company composed of 19th London men and commanded by Capt WJ Moor, Northern Cyclists and No. 2 Double Company composed of men of 2nd Leicestershires and commanded by Capt HW Sharp, 2nd Leicestershire Regt. No. 1 Double Company is divided into two companies, "A" and "B" commanded by A/Capt JM Templeton and A/Capt AF Cuolahan respectively. No. 2 Double Company is divided into two companies, "C" and "D" commanded by Capt JW Turner MC and Capt HS Stockley MC. Strength of companies as follows: "A" Coy 5 officers 110 ORs, "B" Coy 6 officers 113 ORs, "C" Coy 10 officers 114 ORs, "D" Coy 10 officers 121 ORs. Major AS MacIntyre MC 2nd in command.

Homs March 24

Organisation of Bn completed and designated 2/19th (Composite) Bn London Regiment.

I must have looked into this a while ago as I found that I had taken a copy of the relevant page of the 2nd Leicestershires War Diary. This is what it says for the 24th:

Homs March 24

28 officers 235 other ranks transferred to 2/19th London Regt, forming Composite Battalion 28th Infantry Brigade

[Paul Nixon]

Paul, that's because the 19th Londons, along with the 7th Londons, were affiliated to the Middx. This became more formalised from sometime in late 1916. As far as posting was concerned, men could be posted freely between the three and kept their numbers as they were considered to be part of the same corps. I found nearly 1,000 men who served in a battalion of the 19th in the Middx Regt medal rolls. A number of men in the 19th Rolls served at some point with the Middx and had Middx numbers, even when they were with a battalion of the 19th.

This is explained more clearly about 1/4 pf the way down the following page on the LLT: TF infantry renumbering in 1917

You should see the same pattern with the Queens RWS and the 22nd and 24th Londons. Ditto the E Surreys and 21 and 23rd Londons.

Charles, interesting. Thanks for the additional information above.

[Guest leicetershirejones]

So, any idea why his pass is stamped 5 Cavalry Divn?