Guest KevinEndon Posted 27 January , 2007 Share Posted 27 January , 2007 Hunted high and low to find out when and why serjeant became sergeant but to no avail. Can you help please? I would love to know when the J was dropped for a G. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 27 January , 2007 Share Posted 27 January , 2007 Kevin The Oxford English Dictionary says that the original word was Sergeant and that the spelling Serjeant was a variant of that used in some areas. One could expect it's spelling to be based on the phonetic sound of the word. Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 27 January , 2007 Share Posted 27 January , 2007 interesting puzzle question.. Im looking through some old autograph book pages, only around half dozen and trying to pin down names to MIC if possible to see if any come up. On one in particular I have a sergeant F J Grew of the 17th Signal Coy R.E (Motor Despatch Riders) Spring 1915. On it he signs (Sergeant) on his MIC it shows Grew F.J. Serjeant 54159 Royal Engineers. there is also a Sgt A Meadows Kings Liverpool Regt whose MIC lists as Medal card of Meadows, A Corps Regiment No Rank Liverpool Regiment Serjeant Machine Gun Corps Lieutenant in March 1915 he wrote with Sgt A Meadows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 Interchangeable without any obvious reason http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=* http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=* Plus MIC that has both... Description Medal card of Finch, Frank Corps Regiment No Rank Gloucestershire Regiment 392 TF Serjeant 1/5th Gloucestershire Regiment 240017 Company [sergeant] Serjeant Major 2nd Gloucestershire Regiment 56209 Company [sergeant] Serjeant Major Gloucestershire Regiment 56209 Company [sergeant] Serjeant Major Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 In a non-military sense, it seems there are some instances of the G being dropped in favour of the J! E.g. regarding the NZ Parliament (from nzhistory.net.nz): Serjeant-at-Arms The Serjeant-at-Arms (or Sergeant-at-Arms, until the 1950s) carries the mace or the symbol of the Speaker's authority, for the official opening of Parliament, and also at the opening of every sitting when she or he leads the Speaker into the House and announces the Speaker's presence. And the same spelling is used in the House of Commons in the UK, although I don't know if it changed as it did in NZ. From the BBC Serjeant at Arms The Serjeant at Arms is an important official of the House of Commons who is responsible for maintaining law and order in and around the Commons, and also performs some administrative duties Same spelling for same job used in Singapore. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 interesting article here on origins http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/SCY_SHA/SERJEANT.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 And what about the English pronunciation of 'lieutenant'? Where does the 'f' sound come from..............and why doesn't 'colonel' have its 'l' emphasised as in German? And why oh why do some people insist on spelling Welsh as 'Welch'? Isn't language great!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 I can tell you what the CWGC convention is. CWGC has been instructed by the MoD & NZ authorities to use the 'J' spelling for 'Serjeant' in all UK and New Zealand ranks up to November 1953. The same rank in the other dominion forces is to be spelt with a 'G'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 29 January , 2007 Share Posted 29 January , 2007 And what about the English pronunciation of 'lieutenant'? Where does the 'f' sound come from..............and why doesn't 'colonel' have its 'l' emphasised as in German? An explanation of the word Colonel is here, whilst here is the explanation (somewhat) of Lieutenant. I thought 'Welch' was the archaic/older form of Welsh... Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 29 January , 2007 Share Posted 29 January , 2007 Welch/Welsh .......... a muddle. As far as the RWF were concerned, both came and went but the regiment always used the 'c' version internally. Officially 's' in the Great War though. Headstones have a mixture, even in the same cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 January , 2007 Share Posted 29 January , 2007 The CWGC instruction from MoD re 'Welsh/Welch' is to use the 's' version until the end of February 1920 and the 'c' version thereafter. Headstones do not always agree with this but are being brought into line as replacements are erected - hence differences can be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 29 January , 2007 Share Posted 29 January , 2007 Don't you love the Army/MOD?.Tell the CWGC one thing and do the opposite e.g. my Uncle is recorded as a Sjt. by the CWGC but his Victory and War Medal Roll record him as a Sgt. Not sure that helps Kev. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 January , 2007 Share Posted 29 January , 2007 The MoD instruction is a relatively new decision and not contemprary with the war and its immediate aftermath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 29 January , 2007 Share Posted 29 January , 2007 It is a great British tradition to take words from other languages and misuse and mispronounce them. For instance, with regard to the battle, you may well not find the name Blenheim on a foreign map but you will find Blindhelm. Blenheim is the British version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Hollington Posted 30 January , 2007 Share Posted 30 January , 2007 It might have changed more recently but Serjeant was still being used as the correct spelling wihtin the Light Infantry in the mid 1990's. Regards Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 January , 2007 Share Posted 30 January , 2007 The CWGC instruction from MoD re 'Welsh/Welch' is to use the 's' version until the end of February 1920 and the 'c' version thereafter. Headstones do not always agree with this but are being brought into line as replacements are erected - hence differences can be found. Which, of course, fails to explain all the 'c' versions .... there was a moment of retrospection [panic?] in the the 1980s when CWGC realised that all the 'c' versions were, technically, in error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 30 January , 2007 Share Posted 30 January , 2007 On the contrary. It explains it entirely! Immediately post-war when the military were giving CWGC instruction as to nomenclature and badges for headstones, they almost all opted for their then current title/badge. As you know many units had subtle changes of name at the end of the war or just after. No heed was paid to historical accuracy. The regiments were too keen on establishing and broadcasting their new (and often hard won) names - the addition of 'Royal' etc. The classic case is the use of RAF badges for all RFC men - the RAF keen to assert its existance as a separate force. This also meant that the letter 'c' was used for 'Welch'. Such things being anachronisms were not considerations at the time and were not 'errors' as such. It was only much later (probably to try and settle controversy) that a ruling was formulated about the use of 's' and 'c'. Those headstones which were allocated a 'c' at the time according to military instruction are now being given an 's' when replaced in accordance with the revised instruction - as are RFC stones replacing RAF versions etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 January , 2007 Share Posted 30 January , 2007 Of course, you know that I know the facts .... I had a long correspondence with CWGC in the early 1990s. I thought the CWGC was a Commonwealth organisation, so how comes it takes direction from MoD? I might add that the RWF don't give a stuff on the matter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 30 January , 2007 Share Posted 30 January , 2007 It takes direction from MoD on all matters relating to the United Kingdom military. All units mentioned are United Kingdom units. It takes direction on dominion units from the appropriate authorities in those countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 31 January , 2007 Share Posted 31 January , 2007 Thank you Terry. Will wind neck in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 20 February , 2008 Share Posted 20 February , 2008 Hi, I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but can anyone tell me when SerJeant became SerGeant, and why was the change made? Was it a lean step from one to the other or was there a period, long or short when both were used side by side? Cheers, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 20 February , 2008 Share Posted 20 February , 2008 This has been discussed before, so a search of the forum archives might produce the discussion, but basically, the two were interchangeable throughout the Great War. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 20 February , 2008 Share Posted 20 February , 2008 Cheers Ken, Isn't it always the way? I searhed before and was bowled over by the number of returns, but a bit of jiggery - pockery and hey presto, I found the right thread! It's got the info there, but it soon went off the rails talking about Household Cavalry ranks! that's another world entirely! Thanks again. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 February , 2008 Share Posted 21 February , 2008 OK, this is obvious: if you want to know about Household Cavalry ranks, punch in 'serjeant'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 23 February , 2008 Share Posted 23 February , 2008 Don't you more often get Serjeant in the NZEF as well? I vaguely recall reading something along those lines, but can't remember the particulars. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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