rugby-137 Posted 2 December , 2008 Share Posted 2 December , 2008 Pals During November 1917 preserved blood was used in a Casualty Clearing Station for the first time, and meant that time could be saved not looking for donors. Does anyone know which CCS this was or have any other info on the casualty. Regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 2 December , 2008 Share Posted 2 December , 2008 Can't offer a suggestion but would make the observation that in those days some things were easier - didn't have to worry about CJD or AIDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugby-137 Posted 3 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Ok Troops I`ve narrowed it down to a Dr Oswald Robertson who reported transfusing 20 casualties 22 times at the battle of Cambrai November 1917, i`m not sure he was at a CCS probably a base hospital. Can anyone give me some background and circumstances of the battle and any CCS`s that may have been in the area at the time please. Regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Hi Phil I believe you are referring to the Citrated Blood Transfusion, which was tested by Capt Robertson at a CCS during the battle of Cambrai in November 1917. I know the CCS was part of the Third Army, which may help to narrow it down. Also, at one point Capt Robertson was serving in 48 CCS, this may not be the one in question but it may be possible to follow his movements using their war diary as a starting point. Good luck Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillgorilla Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Can't offer a suggestion but would make the observation that in those days some things were easier - didn't have to worry about CJD or AIDS What about Hepatitis, transfusion reaction, septicaemia, and also potential for the wrong blood group being transfused. CJD and AIDS may not have been recognisd then, but there were plenty of things that could go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Barbara post #4 - what does "Citrated" refer to please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 What about Hepatitis, transfusion reaction, septicaemia, and also potential for the wrong blood group being transfused. CJD and AIDS may not have been recognisd then, but there were plenty of things that could go wrong. And can still go wrong today. I don't think they had so much trouble with some of the varieties of Hepatitis then either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Tiger Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Barbara post #4 - what does "Citrated" refer to please? Hi Squirrel Citrated blood = citrate phosphate added to whole blood (i.e. blood straight from the vein). Citrate phosphate is (very simplified answer) an anti-coagulant which increases the shelf life of the blood prior to infusion. Or, if you want the A level version. . . . . Salt of citric acid. Citrate is the first intermediate of the citric acid cycle and tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle. It also plays an important role in fatty acid synthesis which takes place in the cytoplasm. It acts as a carrier of acetyl-CoA, the construction material for fatty acids. The movement is assisted by two enzymes, citrate-condensing enzyme, which catalyzes the condensation of the acetyl unit with oxaloacetate in the mitochondria, and citrate-cleavage enzyme (citrate lyase), which catalyzes the release of the acetyl radical in the cytoplasm of the cell. Hope that helps Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugby-137 Posted 3 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Hi Phil I believe you are referring to the Citrated Blood Transfusion, which was tested by Capt Robertson at a CCS during the battle of Cambrai in November 1917. I know the CCS was part of the Third Army, which may help to narrow it down. Also, at one point Capt Robertson was serving in 48 CCS, this may not be the one in question but it may be possible to follow his movements using their war diary as a starting point. Good luck Barbara Hi Barbara You are correct i am referring to Oswald Hope Robertson, he was a member of the 5th Base Station Hospital after joining the Medical Officer Reserve Corps, they were attached to the British Third Army in May 1917, do you happen to know where 48 CCS was located? Or where i could find the war diaries? Regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Thanks Andy, I prefer the "simplified" version - presumably it reacts with the fibrogen carried on the red corpuscles by modifying the enzymes which react with it to initiate clotting then? Phil, I will look up the location(s) of 48 CCS when I get home and post the answer later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugby-137 Posted 3 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2008 As Andy quite rightly says citrate is an anti coagulant, Robertson worked out that if he bled donors blood into glass jars containing dextrose solution and citrate he could store the blood for up to 28 days on ice. He is now reconised as the forefather of blood banks as we know it today. In November 1917 during the Battle of Cambrai he built an ice chest from 2 ammunition cases and transported 22 units of the blood to a CCS where as already stated he attempted to resuscitate 20 casualties prior to surgery, of the 20 casualties 9 survived. Now over to the experts on the Battle of Cambrai please, any information related to Robertson would be much appreciated. Regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugby-137 Posted 3 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Thanks Andy, I prefer the "simplified" version - presumably it reacts with the fibrogen carried on the red corpuscles by modifying the enzymes which react with it to initiate clotting then? Phil, I will look up the location(s) of 48 CCS when I get home and post the answer later. Squirrel Thanks for that. Regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Tiger Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Squirrel I got home before you 48CCS Locations: Gronetoron Sep 16 - Nov 16 Bray sur Somme Jan 17 - May 17 Peronne-la-Chapelle briefly in May 17 Ytres May 17 - Mar 18 Gezaincourt Mar 18 - Apr 18 Doullens Apr 18 Montigny May 18 - Aug 18 Asylum Aug 18 - Sep 18 Edgehill Sep 18 Brie Sep 18 - Oct 18 Roisel Oct 18 Busigny Oct 18 - Nov 18 Charleroi Nov 18 - Dec 19 Namur Dec 18 - Feb 19 Maubeuge Feb 19 - Mar 19 Namur May 19 - Oct 19 Above thanks to Chris & The Long Long Trail website Phil: this link may also be of use to you Link 1 And to think I pm'd you saying I knew very little about transfusions -Sorry Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugby-137 Posted 3 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Andy Cheers for that. Squirrel don`t let him put you off Regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 He'll have to try harder than that and I just tried the link he posted and it doesn't work. Off home now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Tiger Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 He'll have to try harder than that and I just tried the link he posted and it doesn't work. Off home now. Link works for me. It's a PDF, perhaps you don't have adobe on your work computer. If anyone else is having difficulty try the old cut & paste method. No doubt Phil will have already found this site though. http://www.ramcjournal.com/2004/dec04/blair.pdf Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugby-137 Posted 3 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Link works for me. It's a PDF, perhaps you don't have adobe on your work computer. If anyone else is having difficulty try the old cut & paste method. No doubt Phil will have already found this site though. http://www.ramcjournal.com/2004/dec04/blair.pdf Andy Certainly have now you`ve given away all my secrets Regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Hi All I can add to what has already been given at the moment is that the war diary for 48 CCS is at the National Archive under ref no WO 95/500. However, I will look and see if I can identify which CCSs were at Cambrai at that time. Sorry couldn't do it before because I had to go out to work and have not long been back. I'll let you know how I get on later, or maybe tomorrow. Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 IIRC there was an article in the Daily Mirror @ the time concerning a very early recipient who late became a Doctor in the Outwell area of Norfolk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 The CCSs of the third Army at the time of the attack were Nos 21 and 48 at Ytres, Nos 5 and 55 at Timcourt, Nos 45 and 49 at Achiet-le-Grand, Nos 3 and 29 at Grevillers, No 20 and 43 at Boiseuc-au-Mont, and No 19 and 8 at Agnez-les-Duisans with No 56 in the back area at Edgehill, and the Lucknow at Peronne-la-Chapellette. That was easy it is all laid out in the Official History, for a change. I see that No 48 CCS was there but it is probably a good idea to check out the war diary for confirmation that Capt Robertson was with the CCS at the time. I may even check it out myself when next at the NA All the best Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 Phil, Checked my sources and nothing to add to what you already have - very interesting thread and thanks for starting it. That Andy's a smart wotsit ain't he? How are the ducks by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 And can still go wrong today. I don't think they had so much trouble with some of the varieties of Hepatitis then either.The incidence of serious transfusion reactions and other transfusion-related adverse events, including transmission of infective agents, has fallen massively, by orders of magnitude. It is not correct to suggest that there was less trouble with hepatitis at that time, and some transmissible infective agents were definitely more common, such as syphillis. Septicaemia was a constant threat, as suggested. Given the increased dangers compared with today, the major benefits of volume replacement significantly trumped the dangers of transfusion by a long way. The ABO blood group system was known about, thanks to the work of the Nobel prize winner Professor Landsteiner. Rhesus incompatibility was not understood, but the typical transfusion reaction in an Rh -ve individual is delayed and relatively mild, typically. Also, it requires previous exposure, which in men can really only occur with previous tranfusions. Kell and other blood groups are much rarer, and were only discovered relatively recently. In high intensity casualty settings, the big danger is misreading the label and/or misreading the evidence of an ABO incompatibility test because of the circumstances. Too many transfusions at the same time can be very dangerous too. This would not have been a problem in the cases described above. If anything, the men would have received too little blood to correct the volume loss. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Tiger Posted 3 December , 2008 Share Posted 3 December , 2008 . . . . That Andy's a smart wotsit ain't he. . . Just getting my own back for your avoidance of buying a beer at the Arriane by claiming to have gone to bed early Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 4 December , 2008 Share Posted 4 December , 2008 Barbara post #4 - what does "Citrated" refer to please? Barbara-- it was preserved with Sodium Citrate, I think. away from my references right now-- will check details later. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 4 December , 2008 Share Posted 4 December , 2008 Just getting my own back for your avoidance of buying a beer at the Arriane by claiming to have gone to bed early Andy So, within the context of this thread I'm a clot then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now