What was the rank "trimmer"?

[Matt Dixon]

Is it something to do with ballast on a ship?

[bruce]

Or some sort of fitter, RFC?

[Matt Dixon]

It is definately a RN rank as the chap was Trimmer Charles Ralph RNR.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

I do not understand what is meant by the term "rank". If it simply means occupation, a trimmer was, in effect, a sort of stoker in the Merchant Navy.

As far as I can ascertain, companies such as The White Star Line graded their boiler room staff as "trimmers" or "firemen", the job of the trimmers being to bring coal from the bunkers to the stoke holds, an activity which would obviously have had some effect on the trim of the ship. (Looking at the crew list of RMS Titanic, the term stoker is not used at all, but there were about 300 trimmers and firemen).

If Charles Ralph was in the Royal Naval Reserve, it is possible that his "rank" refects the nature of his company employment.

[bruce]

I sit corrected!

However, I hadn't realised that the Catholic Church was quite so desperate for noviciates!

[Matt Dixon]

I don't know if it was a rank, I am not erudite enough about matters naval to say whether this was a rank or not!

I just assumed, which as we all know is the mother of all cock ups.

Shall we just say his rank/position/ job title etc to make it clearer?

[green_acorn]

Matt,

So combining Stanley's trade/function information with naval ranks he would have been a "Seaman Trimmer" or "Able Seaman Trimmer". A sailor responsible for trimming the coal in the bunkers and moving it to the stokers hold/stokers coal staifs.

Certainly the RAN and probably the RN, described themselves by rank and trade in the same way later in the century. If he was reporting to an officer I think he would have said "Seaman Trimmer Ralph RNR, ..................... Sir".

Cheers,

Hendo

[Matt Dixon]

So he shifted coal in the bowels of a ship. Sounds like a rubbish job.

Thanks for the information.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

I have never been sure if the work of a Merchant Navy trimmer was regarded as being more skilled than that of a fireman. Probably not, although somebody must have decided which bunkers to use (or not use) in relation to the trim of the ship. I suspect that the work of fireman was, in fact, quite skilled, insofar as he would have to learn techniques of firing, use of the dampers, etc - skills which have presumably now been lost.

[Matt Dixon]

From looking on the Net, trimmer seems to have been the lowest of the low, and an all round unpleasant, albeit vital job.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

A trimmer ensured that the coal was evenly distributed when used, so that the trim of the ship was not adversely affected, and also that the firemen never ran short of coal for the boilers. Their main equipment were shovels, wheelbarrows and brute strength. Imagine pushing a wheel barrow along narrow trackways in the pitch and roll of a lively sea shift after shift. Without trimmers the boilers would not operate, not a very lowly job. The engine room crews regarded themselves as a cut above the rest of the crew.

In the Royal Navy Stokers combined the roles of trimmer and fireman. In the RNR trimmer is usually a member of one of the Trawler Sections. If you have his service number the service cards are at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, microfiche copies are at Kew.

[joseph]

"It is definately a RN rank as the chap was Trimmer Charles Ralph RNR."

This was RNR(Trawler Section) it had no equivalent in the RNR.

He equates to the lowest rung in the rank structure of the RN as OD.

His job as stated is to move the coal from the bunkers to the stokehold so the Engineman can feed the boilers, its not a full time job so usually doubles as deckhand or cook.

Regards Charles

[Terence Munson]

Hello - I've read several descriptions of the trimmers lot on steam trawlers The attached pdf is one that sums it up for me.

The chief engineer's response to complaints is one I recognise!

Cheers Terry

trimmer.pdf

[Doc]

Just a note in regards to RN ranks/rates.

Commissioned and Warrant Officers of the Royal Navy hold a "rank",

where as the lower deck personnel hold "rates". ie. holding the rate of

AB, Petty Officer etc.

Ratings were promoted/advanced in rate according to the qualification

and recommendations held and of course any vacancies in the scheme of

complement of the next higher rate.

Regards from an old and pedantic sailor!

[Adrian Roberts]

I suspect that the work of fireman was, in fact, quite skilled, insofar as he would have to learn techniques of firing, use of the dampers, etc - skills which have presumably now been lost.

Almost, but not quite. The skill of the fireman survives in a handful of preserved steam vessels. The attachment here shows the boiler being stoked in the steam tug "Portwey", built in 1927, which is moored in Canary Wharf dock and occassionally plies the Thames. I didn't last too long in that heat and I was only standing there taking photos!

[joseph]

Just a note in regards to RN ranks/rates.

Commissioned and Warrant Officers of the Royal Navy hold a "rank",

where as the lower deck personnel hold "rates". ie. holding the rate of

AB, Petty Officer etc.

Ratings were promoted/advanced in rate according to the qualification

and recommendations held and of course any vacancies in the scheme of

complement of the next higher rate.

Regards from an old and pedantic sailor!

See; Kings Regulations and Admiralty Orders 1913 ChapIII 218

See; Kings Regulations and Admiralty Orders 1913 Volume II Appendix XV Part I Ships Company Order of Rank and Command.

Yes 'Ratings are Ratings' but they must hold Rank to enable them to give orders and command those subordinate to them.

Regards Charles

[Peter and Ellen]

Being a qualified Boiler Attendent (Steam Locomotives) I can tell you that a fireman's job is an extremely hot and dangerous one. If a fire-plug fails during steaming, water and steam from the boiler come back out of the fire-door and will kill the fireman if the door is open and he is standing in front of it, let alone have your face down at that level (see the above image). A tourist having a cab-ride died that way some years ago on a Tourist Railway in Australia.

Now, what I really wanted to add. A fireman is a skilled person in that they must observe and regulate the fire (in the fire-box) and the water level in the boiler. Regulating a fire is having the correct amount of coal in the fire-box to do the work needed at that time. Over-firing a boiler means that precious coal (and therefore money) is wasted. The supervisor would generally detect someone with "a heavy-hand" because they would activate the safety valve to blow-off the excess steam. You get yelled at for doing it. Next, you must have sufficient "fire" to ensure that the steam pressure is at the required level without waste. Too low steam pressure and you get yelled at. The way to get the most economical fire is to have an even spread of coal across the fire-grate (that's what the fire (burning coal) sits on). When it is thin, it is at its hottest (therefore, maximum steam production with the least coal) but if you are not really good at it, you get "holes" in the fire. This is where the coal layer is thin and extra air gets through and accelerates the burning in that spot and the coal layer drops away - hence a "hole" in the fire.

After we have got the fire right, we must concentrate on the water level in the boiler. Too little and you losse steam production and you can blow out a fire-plug. The fire-plug is a lead seal that will melt if it is not covered by water. It is "a safety-device" in that it will put the fire out if the water level is dangerously low. Seems that it is better to risk a fireman that totally wrecking a boiler. If you have too much water, it is "carried" into the steam chests and water will not compress like steam and metal bits starting breaking. Ok. no problem, but you need a good level of steam to get the water into the boiler. You use the boiler's steam to inject water into the boiler. Too much water input drops your boiler pressure. Running low on water and having a bad-fire - you are in trouble.

Notice the heavy cotton clothing in the image. Essential as a trip or loss of balance can result in a body part touching the hot metal and that's not nice. Heavy clothing and long sleeves are a must. High water intake (thanks Gatorade) saves a trip to hospital with cramps - agony.

So there, a snapshot of the life of a fireman.

The Trimmers job may be a dirty one but I feel for the fireman/stoker, he is doing all the hard work and is under "pressure" (sorry, couldn't resist) to get it right.

Regards, Peter

[joseph]

Peter,

Thank you a good explaination, from the Royal Navys point of view a well trained set of Stokers could help get an extra Knot or two out of the ship when required.

Regards Charles

[Guest]

Trimmers also have something to do with horses, a farrier. I think they maybe trim the horses feet , before, or instead of shoeing.

Mike

Edit. Not much use on a ship I suppose.

[Doc]

Just a note in regards to RN ranks/rates.

Commissioned and Warrant Officers of the Royal Navy hold a "rank",

where as the lower deck personnel hold "rates". ie. holding the rate of

AB, Petty Officer etc.

Ratings were promoted/advanced in rate according to the qualification

and recommendations held and of course any vacancies in the scheme of

complement of the next higher rate.

Regards from an old and pedantic sailor!

See; Kings Regulations and Admiralty Orders 1913 ChapIII 218

See; Kings Regulations and Admiralty Orders 1913 Volume II Appendix XV Part I Ships Company Order of Rank and Command.

Yes 'Ratings are Ratings' but they must hold Rank to enable them to give orders and command those subordinate to them.

Regards Charles

Hi Charles,

Could sent me a link to the first two references if possible, so that I enlighten myself as you clearly know something I don't!

I do remember getting balled out by a very old and crusty PO during my Part 1 training about the difference between a rank & rate!

Regards

Don the Doc

[joseph]

Don,

Went into this quite deep when I did my MAA post promotion course.

218. Ship's Company.-

The crews of His Majesty's ships shall consist of the classes and ratings specified in column 1 of Part 1, Appendix XV. ; they shall rank after subordinate officers, and take command after naval Cadets in the order in which they therein stand; men of the same rating, according to the dates on which they were so rated, but if rated on the same day, then according to the order in which they stand on the ship's books for the time being. Men who may have been disrated and restored to the same rating shall only reckon their seniority from the date of their restoration, and men who have any break in their service, from the date of their last re-entry.

[joseph]

And a hopefully quieter than yor Po when under training.

Why a Rating

For manning purposes every position in a ship was identified, numbered and "rated" according to the skills required to fulfil the duties associated with the position, hence a man fulfilling those duties became a "rating". Identical positions in different ships were given the same number so as to provide some continuity throughout the navy. The position number determined what mess the man lived in, on which side of the ship he lived (even numbered messes to port, odd to starboard), where his hammock was slung and stowed, what watch he was assigned to, port or starboard, and where his stations were for the various evolutions. Any equipment carried by the ship and assigned to that position (such as special tools, rifle and webbing, cutlass etc) carried the position number. This is the origin of a man referring to his job aboard ship as a "number". It is also the origin of the old sailor’s term "oppo", or opposite number, which originally meant the man in the other watch who did the same job, i.e. someone with whom he had a lot in common. Although they have lost much of their formal meaning, these terms are still in use today. There were two levels of rating, substantive, which was based on a man’s rank, and non-substantive which was his naval occupation or trade.

Regards Charles

[David B]

Hi,

After many years in the navy I guess I have just learned a few new word meanings, however will disagree about position

On small ships in the RAN each division was allocated a mess deck but the positions you slept etc were first in best dressed as

it were. However the leading hand of the mess had first choice. Maybe thats why some called it Royal Amateur Navy vice Real

navy.

David /Canberra

[joseph]

Maybe works like that now David but in the days of heavily manned warships, a system needed to be in place and that was it, not many 120 man messdecks around nowadays, not many gas turbines or missile systems then.

Regards Charles