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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Crossed Flags


regbutler

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I posted this in the soldiers section first by mistake

Does crossed flags on the sleves and epauletts of a soldiers uniform indicate a Corps or just that he was a signalman in his regament.

Reg Butler

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well, he should only have crossed flags [one white with blue horizontal stripe, one blue] on bottom left sleeve, or, if an NCO Asst Instructor, above rank chevrons upper right sleeve ONLY. The other three baffle me.

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Is this the badge you are referring to Reg?

post-599-1228077980.jpg

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I've looked a bit harder, and find that by the time the Great War came along, the badge was only issued in gilding metal, by the way. The last PVCN with GM and Worsted was 1907. Worsted versions came back some time after the war.

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I've looked a bit harder, and find that by the time the Great War came along, the badge was only issued in gilding metal, by the way. The last PVCN with GM and Worsted was 1907. Worsted versions came back some time after the war.

Grumpy how to you account for the large amount of wartime photos with Worsted versions then? and I mean as late as 1918...

FROGSMILE is that a modern version of the badge?

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Well, of course, I don't need to account for it, as it is an observed fact that the worsted version appears in Great War photographs. I merely stated the position regard to official issue.

Very few worsted flags in photgraphs are, however, unequivocally worsted.

Unofficial sources such as Gamages sold both versions ..... the worsted ones were much less likely to catch on accoutrements and obstacles.

However, the move towards gilding metal was probably driven by cost: an equivalent worsted version of any badge cost at least twice, and often three times, as much as GM. This seems surprising, but the worsted designs were not the easiest to produce, the GM ones were simpler. Against that, there was the perceived need to economise on metal during the war.

The answer is, nobody knows ..... the vital volume of RACD ledger is the ONLY one missing from the series.

If any Pal has some nice 'in wear' photos of worsted flags, please post.

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I believe the Crossed Flags posted by our comrade Frogsmile are the current issue as worn by the Guards and Household Cavalry. These can be identified as they are larger and detailing in white on the standard issue (such as the flagpoles in this case) are in a khaki drill shade (as here). They are not/not as claimed by certain sellers on a well known electronic auction 'WW2' or, heaven forfend, WW1 issue.

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not as claimed by certain sellers on a well known electronic auction 'WW2' or, heaven forfend, WW1 issue.

Correct on the Household Division ident.

As I said above Great War ISSUE was or should have been gilding metal, and in 1923 PVCN, both GM and Worsted were issues for SD. Trying to pin down date of change.

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My thoughts are that there is a difference between the worsted flags worn on the upper arm by a signal instructor, to the guilded badge worn on the lower arm by a man who has attended the signals course.

Here is a signaller wearing worsted on the upper arm, and a proper GW signal patch:-

Guy

post-12226-1228142515.jpg

post-12226-1228142531.jpg

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My thoughts are that there is a difference between the worsted flags worn on the upper arm by a signal instructor, to the guilded badge worn on the lower arm by a man who has attended the signals course.

Here is a signaller wearing worsted on the upper arm, and a proper GW signal patch:-

Guy

It seems that both variants were worn both on upper and lower arms but with the gilding metal in prepondance. Both men are Australians but wearing standard British badges as was the norm at that time.

post-599-1228145129.jpg

post-599-1228146159.jpg

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Frosmile: do you agree both these examples are GM?

The b&w photo has several interesting aspects:

the good conduct badges are in the 'economy' patter, and there is some disagreement as to what they implied in the Oz. service. This from my recent MHS article.

The Australian usage is complicated, in that the Australian Imperial Force (AIF) (which fought overseas) and the Australian Military Forces (who were the permanent force based in Australia) followed different criteria. Taking the latter first, the badge was the same and the criteria were very similar to the British, and for good conduct as such. Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing, Citizen Forces MO 424/1912 and 58/1919 refer. The AIF badge, a chevron as in the British service, was however for ‘long service and good conduct’ and appears to have been introduced on 24th January 1917 by AIF Order 470, Long Service Badges. Qualification was from the date of embarkation, one badge for each completed year overseas, for all ranks up to and including Warrant Officer, with no additional pay. These latter badges may well have become obsolete when the ‘chevrons for overseas service’ (AIF Order 1089 of 29th January 1918) were introduced, identical to the British issue, small chevrons, point up, worn lower right sleeve

The other points of interest to me are the Wound badge, and the fact that his signaller flags are on a brassard: it is known that the crossed flags [and also crossed rifles in GM] were liable to catch in accotrements or obstructions.

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Frosmile: do you agree both these examples are GM?

The b&w photo has several interesting aspects:

the good conduct badges are in the 'economy' patter, and there is some disagreement as to what they implied in the Oz. service. This from my recent MHS article.

The Australian usage is complicated, in that the Australian Imperial Force (AIF) (which fought overseas) and the Australian Military Forces (who were the permanent force based in Australia) followed different criteria. Taking the latter first, the badge was the same and the criteria were very similar to the British, and for good conduct as such. Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing, Citizen Forces MO 424/1912 and 58/1919 refer. The AIF badge, a chevron as in the British service, was however for ‘long service and good conduct’ and appears to have been introduced on 24th January 1917 by AIF Order 470, Long Service Badges. Qualification was from the date of embarkation, one badge for each completed year overseas, for all ranks up to and including Warrant Officer, with no additional pay. These latter badges may well have become obsolete when the ‘chevrons for overseas service’ (AIF Order 1089 of 29th January 1918) were introduced, identical to the British issue, small chevrons, point up, worn lower right sleeve

The other points of interest to me are the Wound badge, and the fact that his signaller flags are on a brassard: it is known that the crossed flags [and also crossed rifles in GM] were liable to catch in accotrements or obstructions.

Yes, both are GM. I think for the Australians the use of brassards was in part driven by the realities of supply and demand. The badges they wore were for the most part British manufactured and supplied. I suspect that with the massive increase in the size of the British Army over the course of the war they found it increasingly difficult to source such badges and made greater use of the ones they had by means of brassards that could be moved from one uniform (and man) to another.

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I think the Crossed flags on Brassard is easy to explain.

Regimental and Company Signallers were to wear a blue band per SS135 1 1/2inches wide on the left forearm. I think this was only a convenient place to also mount the crossed flags.

Joe Sweeney

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Hello all,

I have one of the blue brassards with brass flags attached. I also have a white tape brassard with two horizontal red stripes on it, again with the crossed flags.

I have never read any significance into the worsted/GM mix. From a practical point of view I'm sure the GM version was a pain in the butt lower on the sleeve. They are very vulnerable to catching and bending. Also brilliant at snagging wires etc too I should think.

I have a group photo of signallers and about 90% have the worsted version but the others have GM....in the same unit Ho hum.

The GM are lovely and sparkly on your best suit though.......

Interestingly I have just gone through my photos of 43rd Recce Regiment in WW2 (my other area of research) of which I have dozens of photos.

Guess what a-mix of brass and worsted on best BD. Nothing changes. If it can be worn it will be.

On the subject of the brassards, I have had tunics with the following: Blue shoulder straps, Blue brassard sewn to sleeve, Blue brassard loose, Blue and white brassard sewn down, Blue and white brassard loose, and most spectacularly on a Despatch Riders tunic: two blue and white brassards, and two shoulder strap slip-ons made from a brassard, oh and crossed flags on sleeve in brass!

Yours in a blue and white funk,

Tocemma

This pic of two signallers from 16th Middlesex Regiment is a cracker (note the worsted flags worn by the Corporal in the crook of his stripes) The caption on the back reads:

'With love from John, June 1917.

We now wear blue bands on our arm-some decoration!- Blue shoulder straps, yellow ribbons, red triangle, flags, stripes and blue band!!!'

JVT and Waterhouse L/Cpl. Sig. 16th Mx.'

post-7141-1228172735.jpg

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I think the Crossed flags on Brassard is easy to explain.

Regimental and Company Signallers were to wear a blue band per SS135 1 1/2inches wide on the left forearm. I think this was only a convenient place to also mount the crossed flags.

Joe Sweeney

I agree totally with what you say about Regt and Coy signallers Joe, but it seems to be mostly an Australian practice to wear the badge on the brassard and my point is that this is 'perhaps' (as well as being a convenient place) in part because the badges were maybe less easy for them to come by.

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Frogsmile,

Sorry I have to disagree. I have had several examples of the signallers blue brassard (the one Joe refers to) with brass flags attached or the holes where they have been (none of them Australian to my knowledge) There is nothing unusual about this practice. As issued they have a sliding buckle attached. This means they have to be sewn or tacked in position. Shoving a badge through it is a neat way of making it stay in one place.

See the attached photo. Blue band held in place with brass wound stripe, just visble on right sleeve (on the original) in crook of the stripes GM flags. He also has an MM ribbon.

post-7141-1228174645.jpg

Grumpy,

Signaller Holiday (sic) 3rd Battalion, Coldstream Guards. Worsted flags, photo taken 1916. To his left 9775 Corporal Charles George Gardner, killed in action 15-9-16, aged 23.

post-7141-1228174782.jpg

Regards

TM

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And another couple of interest.

MM RE Signaller, sadly unidentified, 50th (Northumbrian) Division.

post-7141-1228175760.jpg

Another RE signaller, cut down brassards on tacked on both arms. He appears to have embroidered 'Signal Service' slip ons on his shoulder straps. Note this chap seems to have the internal pocket on the inside of his tunic for a tube helmet. The giveaway is the bump where this is and the two batchelor buttons to close it (just visible on his left side tunic hem) A friend of mine has an example of this rare and short lived mod. Also a tube helmet bag slung.

post-7141-1228176026.jpg

Regards

TM

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And another two

Gunner (HAC?) with sewn on blue cloth brassard 1916.

post-7141-1228176717.jpg

Another cracker

'Bob' an RFA signaller with 38th (Welsh) Division, 1918. Note the blue? shoulder straps (they look a bit dark) the groovy cut down div sign, blue brassard, GM flags, good conduct chevron and russia braid wound stripe.

post-7141-1228177943.jpg

Regards

TM

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Note this chap seems to have the internal pocket on the inside of his tunic for a tube helmet. The giveaway is the bump where this is and the two batchelor buttons to close it (just visible on his left side tunic hem) A friend of mine has an example of this rare and short lived mod. Also a tube helmet bag slung.

TM,

Not so short lived. Instructions for the Helmet pocket started coming out in early summer 1915 and were still being issued as late as mid 1916 at least with the EEF.

Joe Sweeney

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Frogsmile,

Sorry I have to disagree. I have had several examples of the signallers blue brassard (the one Joe refers to) with brass flags attached or the holes where they have been (none of them Australian to my knowledge) There is nothing unusual about this practice. As issued they have a sliding buckle attached. This means they have to be sewn or tacked in position. Shoving a badge through it is a neat way of making it stay in one place.

See the attached photo. Blue band held in place with brass wound stripe, just visble on right sleeve (on the original) in crook of the stripes GM flags. He also has an MM ribbon.

Grumpy,

Signaller Holiday (sic) 3rd Battalion, Coldstream Guards. Worsted flags, photo taken 1916. To his left 9775 Corporal Charles George Gardner, killed in action 15-9-16, aged 23.

Regards

TM

No need to be sorry. Disagree all you like. I just have not seen many photos where British soldiers of the period frequently wear their badges through their brassards. That is not to say that some did not do so, just that it was perhaps not such a widespread practice. Conversely, I have seen very many pics where the crossed flags are worn as described by Grumpy.

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Guy

This looks uncannily like your unidentified 50 Div man!!!!!

Bob Edwards, 50 Division

Crikey it does look like him. I think my bloke is a bit younger though. What are the odds of that. The clincher would have to the MM....

Sadly there is nothing on the card except for Carte Postale which at least means it was taken overseas.

Regards

Tocemma

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Last two for tonight!

Signaller, The Buffs, Brass wound, stripe GM flags, blue? cloth on sleeve. It is just possible that this is a mourning band in black. Technically banned along with black wrapped 'mourning' buttons, but quite often seen. It may just be a darkish blue though like the previous pic of the RFA signaller.

post-7141-1228178938.jpg

Corporal Signaller, Bedfordshire Regiment (?) Note the very new Pattern '14 equipment being worn here.

post-7141-1228179635.jpg

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