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Remembered Today:

Honoured At Last


Waffenlandser

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The total number of British soldiers executed at dawn for so called cowardice is estimated to be around 360. The British army in 1914 was till enforcing discipline under the army act of 1861. The army act did function similar to Britsh common law but was modified to include punishments for desertion, cowardice in the face of the enemy, mutiny and desertion. It was, however left up to commanding officers and NCOs to level the charges for the above against a soldier. As we all know the hearings and sentences were the responsibility of a general court marshal. The final decision was in the hands of the generals at the top, ie French, Haig and Rawlinson.

Through the years there have been arguments for and against these harsh punishments carried out by the French and the British. The subject has been thoroughly covered by the Book by "Shot at Dawn" In his weak attempts to cover up the slaughters of the Somme, Gordon Corrigan, defends the shooting of young men and boys as being justified. The courts marshall, in my opinion, were not kangaroo courts, but well constituted and fair. There was a problem, however. The courts and the chain of command were not too informed or empathetic to battle fatgue or shell shock. These trauma induced behaviors were regarded as cowardice and desertion, and men died tied to a stake for this.

The young soldiers who died, shot at dawn by their own comrades, were properly buried and their NOK informed they died honourably in battle and the book was closed on their lives. Privately they were regarded as cowards and shirkers and given little recognition forr the horrible deaths they died. Fortunately of the 3000 men sentenced to death, only 346 were actually executed. Australia and South Africa outright refused to kill their own men while the British shot 291 of their own. Interestingly 21 were Chinese labour corps workers. The French shot over 700 soldiers and the so called Hun executed less than 50 of their own men.

Ok then so why start this thread when all this has been re hashed over so many times? Whats new here. Whats new is that in todays newspaper there is a banner headline.

"A new legacy in Belgium for Word War 1 Deserters"

Belgium has finally decided, 90 years after the armistice of 1918, to give recognition to the heros shot by their own side for alleged cowardice. In a small grassy courtyard in Popringe there is a single pole, the lenght of a man. The pole is similar to the hops vine support pole used as execution posts. Behind the pole are the immortal words of Rudyard Kipling.

I could not look on death

which being known

Men led me to Him

Blindfold and alone

Why Popringhe then?

It was here, near the monument where the condemned spent their last night. Many still suffering from shell shock. A recent visitor found a crumpled note on one of the wooden cots where the last night was spent. It said

"You wil always be remembered. You did us proud"

The British parliament,as you all know, in 2006 pardoned, posthumously, those executed. French prime minister, Sarkozy has stated "They were not dishonoured, nor were they cowards. The war museun in Ypres now has a section on the executed heros stemming from meetigs by the Allies, Germans and families of the condemned. The horror of the execution of Pvt. Harry Farr, shot for cowardice, but suffering from severe shell shock has echoed down through the years and is a stain on humanity's conscience. Ypres museum curator, Dominik Dendooven summarises it all.

"Apart from the injustice, it was a form of mental coercion" In other words, men were sacrificed to set an example.

The British have also, at last erected a memorial to those shot at dawn.

The Shot at Dawn Memorial is a British Monument located at the National Memorial Arboretum near Alrewas, in Staffordshire, UK in memory of the 306 British and Commonwealth soldiers executed for cowardice and desertion during World War I.

The memorial portrays a young British soldier blindfolded and tied to a stake in anticipation of execution by firing squad. The memorial was modelled on the likeness of 17-year-old Private Herbert Burden, who lied about his age in order to enlist in the forces and was later shot for desertion. It is surrounded by a semi-circle of stakes on which are listed the names of every soldier executed in this fashion. These included: Harry Farr, Thomas Highgate, Eric Poole, and Lance Corporal Peter Goggins.

The memorial was created by the artist Andy DeComyn and was unveiled by Mrs Gertrude Harris, daughter of Private Harry Farr, in June 2001. Mrs Marina Brewis, the great niece of Lance Corporal Peter Goggins, also attended the service.

In honoured memory.

Edwin Leopold Arthur Dyett.

Executed by firing squad. January 2nd 1917.

Lance Sergeant Stones

Shot at dawn January 18th 1917

And the 344 other brave men who died with no epitaph.

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Just to clarify...Is everything after the headline the article from the newspaper? If so, am I right in thinking that the memorial is the so-called execution post that's been at Poperinge for ages, or am I missing something new?

Oh, and in regard to your introductory paragraphs, I suspect we'll just have to disagree about your simplistic opinions on this - however much you might want to try to dress them up as facts. But I really don't have the strength or interest for yet another turgid rehash of the subject.

John

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Obviously the memorial wooden stake is not the original. Its symbolism is what counts.

Please educate me about the simplistic opinions you seem to conjure up regarding the cruel and unusual punishments of 1917.

There were no executions of any American soldiers in WW1 for desertion or cowardice.

This thread is not a rehash. Its about yet another attempt to remove the stigma on brave soldiers by a former ally.

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Hiya mate.

When John mentions a rehash,it's about a few threads that we can't see anymore as they have all been deleted for legal & other reasons.

Your question has been asked before.Doesn't mean you can't ask it again but,the other threads led to a lot,loads, of hostility & sniping.That's all.

I always wondered if the guy's s.a.d. for murder or other heinous crimes should be commemorated in the same way as,hummmm,my family members are.

Off the top of my head,I don't fancy that.

As to the shock victims,total travesty.

Dave.

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As a general point, and not aimed at this thread alone, it would be good to see more recycling done with GWF threads. Why start a new debate when there are plenty of others available under a click of the Search button:

e.g.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...hot%20at%20dawn

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...hl=shot+at+dawn

Just enter shot at dawn / executions / SAD etc, and you can revive many a dormant debate.

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I have no problem with the death penalty for murder. I live in Texas and here its nothing unusual.

This thread is not meant to rehash. Its a thread based on new information coming out of Ypres about the killing of young soldiers too mentally ill to be responsible for their actions. Its all about the horrors of war and reminding us "Lest we forget".

Pardons for soldiers

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Why start a new debate when there are plenty of others available under a click of the Search button:

Hello Kate. I am new to this forum. Far away from the Old Sweathood. I dont know what has been before me. This thread is based on information aired in the US press TODAY. I am not digging up old bones but rather putting cleaner earth on those old bones.

This was not meant in any way to be a debate. Just sharing information.

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Have any of the Texas executed murderers received pardons at a later date for murders that they commited???????

Sorry, but I am with Dave on this, should a murderer be commemorated in the same way as some of my family are, or any of the men that gave their lives fighting during WW1. Most definetely not in my eyes, and I am very uncomfortable with the fact that due to this pardon we have seen murderers pardoned, small numbers sure but murderers all the same, to be quite honest this aspect of the pardon sickens me.

Andy

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I would be interested to know where the number of 21 CLC workers come from.

I have not access to my records at the moment but if memory serves me the number was 10 and I think all were executed for murder.

Ivor

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Have any of the Texas executed murderers received pardons at a later date for murders that they commited???????

Sorry, but I am with Dave on this, should a murderer be commemorated in the same way as some of my family are, or any of the men that gave their lives fighting during WW1. Most definetely not in my eyes, and I am very uncomfortable with the fact that due to this pardon we have seen murderers pardoned, small numbers sure but murderers all the same, to be quite honest this aspect of the pardon sickens me.

Andy

Andy,

I thought the blanket pardon granted by the Government specifically excluded those exectuted for murder? I'll stand corrected but it is my belief that those convictions (and the sentences awarded) still stand. I was quite interested in that particular aspect because I did challenge one or two of the campaigners about it; it was my belief that they had been excluded by the SAD campaign for political reasons rather than any consideration of judicial fairness - which was one of the key tenets of the SAD campaign. My position was (and still is) that if the unfairness/class bias of the court martial system was a sufficient excuse for overturning the convictions (i.e. miscarriages of justice) then the nature of the crime was irrelevant. Needless to say, this rather uncomfortable question never got a straight answer from the SAD campaigners posting on this forum and seems to have been expediently overlooked by the politicians as well. <_<

Andy.

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I'll stand corrected but it is my belief that those convictions (and the sentences awarded) still stand.

They do as, in fact do all the others.

The "pardon" given by the UK government specifically confirmed that the process of justice, correctness of convictions and sentences were not being challenged. The legal status of those shot is now exactly as the others who were convicted and sentenced, but whose sentences were not carried out - if you will, a posthumous commutation of sentence.

It is, IMO, a very very hollow success for those who who campaigned for full pardons and must have left many disappointed. It now means, probably for eternity, that the those clearly not guilty of the crime for which they were charged (such as Wille Stone) remain tarnished by being in the same company of men who were clearly very very guilty (for example, Ingham & Longshaw - two men who not even "Shot at Dawn" attempts to excuse or justify). It is the penalty we pay for allowing politicians to interfere in what should be a judicial process.

Returning to the original post, it seems that the "new" memorial is the post that's been a "tourist attraction" for some while.

John

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I would be interested to know where the number of 21 CLC workers come from.

I have not access to my records at the moment but if memory serves me the number was 10 and I think all were executed for murder.

Ivor

You're correct. I think the newspaper must be lumping together the CLC men and others from non-fighting "foreign" units - muleteers,Cape Colony Labour, etc.

One is probably Ahmed of the ELC who, as you know, we are currently trying to get recognised by CWGC.

John

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Thank you Andy and John,

I am relieved to hear this so I stand corrected as I had not read the whole pardon but was informed that ALL had been pardoned. Somewhat easier in my mind now regardiing this, so thank you gentlemen.

Andy

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The unease which many of us feel regarding pardoning the 10 executed for murder does need examining. A couple had unintentionally killed an arresting soldier (recollection - sources not at hand). Not premeditated, a very unlucky scuffle resulting in death, and could just as easily have resulted in a thick ear. In my opinion, not murder, and not worthy of execution, therefore pardonable. But, under military law of 1916 - murder- and to be executed. I've very recently read Shot at Dawn and Blindfold and Alone and returned them to the Forum member. I think that almost all the murders were military murders? Was there a case of an executed soldier found guilty of a civilian's death? That surely would be beyond the pale.

Apologies for vagueness. Please ignore, correct or discard as appropriate.

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Just stumbled on this, realised it was a SAD and nearly put the lights out BUT the thread starter is definitely short on accuracy, or the source of the various quotations is.

Best thing is that, this time round, people have not got over-excited or litigious.

But I though SAD was proscribed herein?

Enough from me, feel the blood pressure rising.

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But I though SAD was proscribed herein?

Change of Forum ownership brought change of policy.

Hopefully the passage of time (and the "pardons") will mean that it won't be too long before this subject becomes a non-issue in our community - as there will be little to be achieved by constant re-discussion.

John

Was there a case of an executed soldier found guilty of a civilian's death?

I have it in mind that there were a number of cases of serving soldiers murdering civilians but that they were tried in civilian courts. Memory is vague.

John

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John,

Not my strong point SAD however, thanks to Roy, I have the papers on one of these murders where he was condemned to death by a court martial. 9th RB man where under section 41 A.A. when on active service committing the offence of murder, in that he, at No 4 Rue Racine, Havre on the 19/12/17, did feloniously, wilfully and on malice of forethought kill and murder one Henriette Tremerel, an inhabitant of the country.

Plea: Not guilty

Verdict: Guilty

Sentence: Death

Confimed by D. Haig on 3/3/18

Sentence was duly executed at 6.4 am on 7/3/18, death was instantaneous, GSW to the heart.

Andy

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Andy

By Roy, I assume you mean "themonsstar". He & I have chatted about SAD in the past and he is one of the few members here who has read many of the original courts martial papers. I know his views about the guilt of many of the men executed.

John

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what "guilt" are we speaking of here? Guilty of being mentaly unbalanced?

In previous threads some of the supporters of the executions stated many deserted before going over the top. They seem to ignore the shelling that these men endured for days prior to the actual advance across No Mans land.

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Hi John,

The very man, he was kind enough to place all the papers regarding the above case on a disc for me when we last met at Kew, interesting reading.

Andy

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Hopefully the passage of time (and the "pardons") will mean that it won't be too long before this subject becomes a non-issue in our community - as there will be little to be achieved by constant re-discussion.

Unfortunately the entire subject of WW1 is blossoming and it seems as if the 400,000 visitors to Flanders last year do not follow the passage of time philosophy. Almost monthly there is some article in our local newspapers about WW1. The subject, I beg to differ, is a huge issue. Perhaps not in your community, but in the community of our collective concience. It appears as though any issue over WW1 can be rediscussed except the sore points like this and others.

The US army executions of Black soldiers at Shepton Mallet prison in England in WW2 has aroused similar criticisms. Accusations of racism and biased judges are being thrown at the military. History does not sleep. History does demand accountability, no matter how long ago the incidents took place.

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Enfield,

The guilt being presently discussed is that of a murderer, who was in Havre not the front line. He was medically examined by two mental specialists who pronounced that he was sane and capable of appreciating the nature and quality of his actions.

I am not passing judgement on the many SAD cases, but discussing one of the SAD murder cases.

Andy

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what "guilt" are we speaking of here? Guilty of being mentaly unbalanced?

Guilty of the military crimes with which they were charged.

Mentally unbalanced? Surely you're not suggesting that Stones was mentally unbalanced, are you? Surely an insult to his memory if you are.

Mentally unbalanced? Do you know of any evidence of Ingham or Longshaw being mentally unbalanced?

John

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