NeilEvans Posted 21 November , 2008 Share Posted 21 November , 2008 My Gt Uncles last words, J L Nuttall, see pic and signature Rhyl Journal 01/07/1916 A very sad case of suicide on the part of a soldier stationed at Kinmel Camp was investigates by Mr J. Roberts Jones, deputy coroner for Flintshire, at St. Asaph on Tuesday the discovery of the tragedy was made on Sunday by Captain Wyatt, Menai Bridge, Anglesey supervising recruiting officer for Anglesey, while on a visit to St. Asaph walking through some fields near Bryn Elwy in the afternoon, he noticed a soldier apparently standing under a tree. On getting a nearer view he found the soldier was suspended from the tree by a rope, his feet being about two feet from the ground. He at once cut him down, but life was quite extinct. On the ground near the body was a soldiers cap containing a letter. The body was subsequently identified as that of Lance Sergeant John Leonard Nuttall, formally of the 9th battalion of the Welsh Regiment and lately attached to the 12th battalion. He was 34 years of age and unmarried, prior to the outbreak of war he was employed as a colliery check weigh man in South Wales. He joined the army within a month of the outbreak of war, and he went to the front last year with the 9th Welsh Regiment. Being wounded by shrapnel he was in hospital some time until the beginning of June, and about a fortnight ago, he joined the 12th Welsh Regiment at Kinmel Camp. Information was given at the inquest by deceased by Thomas Brereton, Farmer, Cefn that stated that the late deceased seemed to have been suffering from a nervous breakdown. He had not been able to sleep very well and on this account was allowed to sleep at his mother’s homes in Bodelwyddan, when seen by his friends last Saturday he seemed quite jolly. Captain Wyatt related how he found the deceased, and the letter found in his cap, was read as follows. D Coy Welsh Regiment Kinmel Camp 13757, can not rest day or night my head hurts so bad. I am grieving to think of the pain and trouble it'll cause, but I am going to seek the other world. May god comfort my dear ones and have mercy on my soul. I am better dead than insane, and I have done my bit for England. Good Bye All. My head is bursting again now god comfort my loved ones. Amen Amen Amen. Another letter produced contained a request by the deceased to his captain, to be allowed to revert back to the rank of private on account of loss of memory and weak nerves due to shock Deceased regimental conduct sheet was produced showing he had an absolutely clean record A verdict of suicide whilst temporaily insane was recorded by the jury, the foreman was John Rogers and sympathy was expressed with the bereaved relatives was expressed Thoughts? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 21 November , 2008 Share Posted 21 November , 2008 Tragic,poor man,but for the grace of god. My thoughts are of pity,and can imagine being in his shoes. I wonder if had he known the contents of the letter,would it have changed his mind? Can you tell more of how you came by it? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 21 November , 2008 Share Posted 21 November , 2008 What a heartbreaking letter Neil ! Many soldiers who had been wounded became depressed and distressed - especially when their battalions suffered severely and they were "just wounded " ....... many wished they had been killed also ..... he probably thought less of his own wounds than he did of the loss of his men .... how scared your sergeant must have been .... I hope that now he rests in peace ! Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 21 November , 2008 Share Posted 21 November , 2008 Heartbreaking. How many others made that choice? And who would blame them? Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 21 November , 2008 Share Posted 21 November , 2008 Heartbreaking. How many others made that choice? Phil. Loads! Heres another one - WHITE G.J Ministry of Pensions reference – 12970 E Total War Service: 1 Year, 303 days Private G/2322 George Joseph WHITE. 3rd Battalion (Dover), The Buffs (East Kent Regiment). Formerly 6th Buffs (Cory’s Own). Comitted Suicide 8 September 1917 at ? Born Swanscombe, Kent. Enlisted London (Volunteered) 9 September 1914. Husband of Mrs Emily Louisa White (nee Pullen), 13 College Road, Northfleet, Kent. Married 24 March 1913. Resided (1914) 134 Charlton Lane, Woolwich, London. His name appears on the Corys Roll of Honour Canterbury? Before the outbreak of war George was working as a “Journeyman”? Children George Joseph WHITE 6 February 1914 (Woolwich) Enlisted London (Volunteered) 9 September 1914. Posted 12 September 1914 to Canterbury (Buffs Depot) for basic training. Landed France (6th Buffs) 1 May 1915. Wounded in action (Gunshot wound Right Arm) 14 May 1915. Evacuated from the field (France) through the medical chain and recovered to UK 16 May 1915. Upon arriving home George was admitted into hospital at Dover for treatment of Gunshot Wound. After treatment George proceeded to the Citidel in Dover (3rd Buffs) where he became seriously mentally ill. His service papers clearly show his service character to have been – GOOD. Admitted to hospital 14 March 1916 (Demented) – He has become engulfed ? mentally. He is now dull, does not speak, he sits staring. Primary Dementia. Became Non-Effective 7 July 1916 - No longer fit for further war service (not yet discharged from the army). Sent to Military Wing, Napsbury (County of Middlesex) War Hospital. Admitted as a serviceman suffering from a serious mental illness. Still in asylum March 1917 (being treated). Letter from Napsbury to 3rd Buffs – 27 June 1916 Advising George’s commanding officer that the service authorities intended to discharge George from the Military Wing of County of Middlesex War Hospital, St Albans, Hertfordshire to a civilian asylum and that clothes would be provided. The army appears to have finally lost it’s patience with poor George and most shockingly made arrangements to finally kick him out the army! (This is probably why he killed himself). On 1st July 1916 George’s wife received papers from the Army advising of her husbands intended final discharge. DISCHARGED FROM ARMY: 7 July 1916 Sad letter from his wife to Army Pay Office Personal letter from his wife to Army Pay Office advising that her husand “had lost his memory and cannot speak”! She goes on to request monies owed that were owed to her husband in his army pay. Ministry of Pensions – George stated he had been wounded in France (GSW Right Arm) and that the experience had unsettled him badly. The Medical Officer wrote “Aggravated by his war service, Stress of Campaign and GSW Right Arm. permanent incapacity”. Awarded a full war disability pension. Letter to Wife 1 October 1917 On 1st October 1917 (after George’s suicide) his wife was sent a letter from the Ministry of Pensions advising her that she was being awarded a full widows war pension of 18/9 per week for herself and 1 child. Letter to Wife From Army 12 July 1918 (after George’s death) The Infantry Records Office at Hounslow wrote – “Primary Dementia was Probably Aggravated by war service! They awarded George’s wife a full war pension based upon the fact. On 19th February 1918 the Army (Infantry Record Office) at Hounslow sent his wife Army Form B.104 – 126 forwarding onwards George’s personal effects. The form states “of the LATE” 2322 Private White etc… This proves he was still a serving soldier at the time he killed himself! There is also another note from the Ministry of Pensions dated 14 July 1917 advising of George’s death. On 20 July 1920 George’s wife Mrs Emily White was sent a Kings Certificate which was awarded to all familys who lost a man during the Great War. This in itself proves that poor George’s suicide was attributable to his war service. The service authorities and Ministry of Pensions certainly thought this was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilinsky Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 Thanks Neil for reminding us (if we needed reminding preaching to mostly the converted here!) the pain and sufferings of armed conflict and that they do not end when the last cannon has fired or the last bullet has harmlessly hit the dirt. John Toronto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 22 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2008 I will admit this caused me sadness, I myself shed a few tears. The line that moved me the most was 'i am better dead than insane' The chap who wrote this letter was a relation of mine, (see pic). This find has marked an end into finding out his life and death. Never have i been so moved reading a letter, the futility of war and its consequences are evident. Needless to say his family (mother, brother and two sisters) never came to peace with his tradgic end. My late grandfather was only informed of the 'true' death of his uncle in his mid 20's, suicide not Killed in Action, buried in Wales not lost in France. He is now at rest, a brave man. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desdichado Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 A terrible tragedy. His last sentiments are eerily familiar to many others that I have read that were written by shell-shocked soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 Neil I suspect that only those of us who have suffered from severe depression can begin to understand how your relative must have been feeling. I've researched three Stockport men where suicide has been involved. Each case was different and it's impossible to draw any real conclusions one to the other. One man had been badly wounded and was in hospital in the UK. Allowed home for a day's leave, he had tea with the family then went out into the back yard and cut his throat. Another, prepapring to go overseas after training, came to Stockport to say a final goodbye to his estranged wife and children; returned to camp and killed himself. The third murdered his officer (my researchee) and then shot himself. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salesie Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 Needless to say his family (mother, brother and two sisters) never came to peace with his tradgic end. My late grandfather was only informed of the 'true' death of his uncle in his mid 20's, suicide not Killed in Action, buried in Wales not lost in France. He is now at rest, a brave man. Neil He may have been buried in Wales, Neil, but it's 100% clear that he was "lost" in France. Cheers-salesie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 A truly sad story Neil. Perhaps a full transcript of the Coroner's report (Rhyl Journal) would be appreciated by members as a true reflection of the turmoil caused under shell-shock circumstances to a man who had done more than his fair share of 'serving the colours' in France? Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchester terrier Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 The army appears to have finally lost it’s patience with poor George and most shockingly made arrangements to finally kick him out the army! (This is probably why he killed himself). Hi Neil Clark, any chance of expanding on this comment? Neil, thanks for shareing this info. A suicide leaves so many questions in the minds of the relatives and friends, so much guilt and emotional devastation at not having "done something" or not realising what the person was going through. There can also be a certain amount of anger with the person for having done it, taking themselves away from their troubles but leaving others to cope with the consequenses of their action. Killing youself can be seen by family as the ultimate rejection of their unconditional love. I think thats why families find it so hard to cope with. That letter really brings it home to me how someone can stand at the edge of the abyss, look over their shoulder and decide there's nothing worth stepping backwards for. cheers baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 Neil, a nice write-up on George - a real victim of the war. I have sent you an email via the forum regarding this matter. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 22 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2008 My Pleasure Geraint Rhyl Journal 01/07/1916 A very sad case of suicide on the part of a soldier stationed at Kinmel Camp was investigates by Mr J. Roberts Jones, deputy coroner for Flintshire, at St. Asaph on Tuesday the discovery of the tragedy was made on Sunday by Captain Wyatt, Menai Bridge, Anglesey supervising recruiting officer for Anglesey, while on a visit to St. Asaph walking through some fields near Bryn Elwy in the afternoon, he noticed a soldier apparently standing under a tree. On getting a nearer view he found the soldier was suspended from the tree by a rope, his feet being about two feet from the ground. He at once cut him down, but life was quite extinct. On the ground near the body was a soldier’s cap containing a letter. The body was subsequently identified as that of Lance Sergeant John Leonard Nuttall, formally of the 9th battalion of the Welsh Regiment and lately attached to the 12th battalion. He was 34 years of age and unmarried, prior to the outbreak of war he was employed as a colliery check weigh man in South Wales. He joined the army within a month of the outbreak of war, and he went to the front last year with the 9th Welsh Regiment. Being wounded by shrapnel he was in hospital some time until the beginning of June, and about a fortnight ago, he joined the 12th Welsh Regiment at Kinmel Camp. Information was given at the inquest by deceased by Thomas Brereton, Farmer, Cefn that stated that the late deceased seemed to have been suffering from a nervous breakdown. He had not been able to sleep very well and on this account was allowed to sleep at his mother’s homes in Bodelwyddan, when seen by his friends last Saturday he seemed quite jolly. Captain Wyatt related how he found the deceased, and the letter found in his cap, was read as follows. D Coy Welsh Regiment Kinmel Camp 13757, can not rest day or night my head hurts so bad. I am grieving to think of the pain and trouble it'll cause, but I am going to seek the other world. May god comfort my dear ones and have mercy on my soul. I am better dead than insane, and I have done my bit for England. Good Bye All. My head is bursting again now god comfort my loved ones. Amen Amen Amen. Another letter produced contained a request by the deceased to his captain, to be allowed to revert back to the rank of private on account of loss of memory and weak nerves due to shock Deceased regimental conduct sheet was produced showing he had an absolutely clean record A verdict of suide whilst temporarily insaen was recorded by the jury, the foreman was John Rogers and sympathy was expressed with the bereaved relatives was expressed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eirridia Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 Before the outbreak of war George was working as a “Journeyman”? It means that he'd finished his apprenticeship (at whatever his trade was) and was now qualified, but didn't employ anyone. When the journeyman employed people he would become a 'master'. A bit archaic, I'm not sure that such terms were used very commonly in the 20th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 Interesting that the jury brought in a verdict of accidental death. Might this have affected pensions or life assurance payments? That is the verdict might have benefited the family in some way. Obviously John was a man of faith and exceedingly conscientious. Certainly a victim of war. I wonder, did he suffer a head wound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchester terrier Posted 22 November , 2008 Share Posted 22 November , 2008 A bit archaic, I'm not sure that such terms were used very commonly in the 20th century I remeber my dad saying that he was a journeyman tailor after his apprenticeship. Worked around various parts of the UK prior to WW2. Still seems to be used in the USA looking at these job adverts . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 23 November , 2008 Share Posted 23 November , 2008 Interesting that the jury brought in a verdict of accidental death. Might this have affected pensions or life assurance payments? That is the verdict might have benefited the family in some way. Obviously John was a man of faith and exceedingly conscientious. Certainly a victim of war. I wonder, did he suffer a head wound? Ahh! Come on Ian! The suggestion that you needed to be struck on the head is demeaning! Psychological illness, severe depression, and chronic mental problems are NOT caused by a bump on the head. He'd lived through the horrors of war, his own psyche was damaged by that, he was affected by the social and religious conditioning of the period and decided that he couldn't contribute to it any more. The jury and coroner sympathised with him and the verdict reflects that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 23 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2008 My typo it was suicide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 23 November , 2008 Share Posted 23 November , 2008 I think the question about a head wound relates to the comment 'my head hurts so bad', perhaps seeking a physical cause for the symptom. Chronic pain can lead to depression and suicide. Physical symptoms are commonly associated with depression, a reminder that we cannot neatly divide the person into mind and body. The two are intimately linked. It is always important to consider other causes, such as atypical presentation of a brain tumour, but the symptoms could be explained by depression. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desdichado Posted 23 November , 2008 Share Posted 23 November , 2008 I remeber my dad saying that he was a journeyman tailor after his apprenticeship. Worked around various parts of the UK prior to WW2. Still seems to be used in the USA looking at these job adverts . I've always thought that a journeyman was in between an apprentice and a master. My late father-in-law was a master craftsman in Pennsylvania and he was not considered as such until he was in his late thirties. However, in the UK it does seem to have a different connotation. On soldier I researched served his apprenticeship as a carpenter in South Wales and his occupation was given as "journeyman" in 1915, when he was 42. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulsten Posted 23 November , 2008 Share Posted 23 November , 2008 Sad tale i uncovered in a local newspaper http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=70955&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desdichado Posted 23 November , 2008 Share Posted 23 November , 2008 I think the question about a head wound relates to the comment 'my head hurts so bad', perhaps seeking a physical cause for the symptom. Chronic pain can lead to depression and suicide. Physical symptoms are commonly associated with depression, a reminder that we cannot neatly divide the person into mind and body. The two are intimately linked. It is always important to consider other causes, such as atypical presentation of a brain tumour, but the symptoms could be explained by depression. Robert Robert, I've read umpteen medical reports from the period where doctors have examined those suffering from shell-shock. One symptom that was common to many of these cases was severe headaches. Not all cases had suffered wounds. Depression too was common amongst men of all classes and ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 23 November , 2008 Share Posted 23 November , 2008 I agree with the frequent association between headaches and shell-shock. There are many reasons why the two can be related, with bone and ear drum injuries as well as whiplash effects in some cases, to name a few. It wasn't clear that he had sustained a concussion injury, but then I was paying more attention to the second case, which was a GSW . Thanks for picking up on that. The memory loss and 'nerves' would fit with either shell-shock or depression. The mention of his seeming quite jolly also fits with depression. L.S. Nuttall's lift in mood may indicate that he had decided to end his life. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 24 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2008 My own thoughts regarding 'my head hurts so bad' and 'my head is bursting now' is that of mental strain, although we can't rule out a head injury. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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