Motherwell: Bros: John Ernest/David/James Quail & Unc James Gemmel

[dfaulder]

(In slight embarrassment:)

CWGC gives me:

Name: MOTHERWELL, JOHN ERNEST

Initials: J E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Captain

Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Rifles

Unit Text: 3rd Bn.

Secondary Regiment: The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment

Secondary Unit Text: attd. 9th Bn.

Age: 29

Date of Death: 21/10/1916

Additional information: Son of David and Catherine Motherwell, of 7, Somerset Terrace, Belfast.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: II. A. 25.

Cemetery: REGINA TRENCH CEMETERY, GRANDCOURT

Can I find his MiC? Can I h***!

From correspondence (in brother A/CQMS James Motherwell's Service Record), I see his father refers to him as J Ernest Motherwell. I also suspect that Somerset Terrace may have been an off-shoot of University Street.

Any ideas?

TIA

David

[DMannus]

Hello

1910 entry for University Street,Belfast

Somerset Terrace

123. Graham, W., pawn broker

125. Wallace, J., linen merchant

127. Browne, R., provision merchant

129. Laughlin, R. G., hardware merchant

131. Polley, W. T., commercial traveller

133. Phillips, Mrs. Lillie

135. Motherwell, D., manager of D, Allen & Sons Ltd.

David

Also Roll of Honour entry for May Street PC.

Motherwell

David Lieutenant R.I.R. 133 University Street

Motherwell

James Sergeant R.I.R. 133 University Street

Motherwell Killed in Action J. Ernest Lieutenant H.L.I. 133 University Street

[dfaulder]

David,

Thanks for this (swift) information confirming the relationship of Somerset Terrace to University Street.

Being unfamiliar with genealogical tracing in Ireland, could you confirm:

1910 entry for University Street,Belfast

Refers to an Irish census (or was Ireland on the same cycle as GB of 1901, 1911?). If so, is this available on-line anywhere?

Roll of Honour entry for May Street PC

Refers to a church memorial? PC = Protestant Church? Again is there an on-line source?

Many thanks

David

[welshdoc]

If his family did not claim his medals there would be no MIC (presuming that the rules for dead officers was the same as living, I can never remember).

[Stebie9173]

There is a MIC for David Motherwell, 135 University St., Belfast on Ancestry, but I can't see John Ernest.

STOP PRESS: He is on Ancestry under J Motherwell, 9 Bn High LI, 3 Bn R Ir Rif 2754, 2754 , I think. The card doesn't show an officers rank, but refers to David Motherwell and J E Motherwell, and shows "Comm." = Commissioned.

Steve.

[keggy65]

David:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancest...lly/rohpci.html

You could try this website - I've had a quick look at the obvious presb. churches but with no luck.

Good luck.

Mabel

[dfaulder]

There is a MIC for David Motherwell, 135 University St., Belfast on Ancestry, but I can't see John Ernest.

Thanks, I too have found David Motherwell (who I think was the eldest of three brothers). I have also found the MIC and SR of James Motherwell (the younger brother).

STOP PRESS: He is on Ancestry under J Motherwell, 9 Bn High LI, 3 Bn R Ir Rif 2754, 2754 , I think. The card doesn't show an officers rank, but refers to David Motherwell and J E Motherwell, and shows "Comm." = Commissioned.

Thanks, that the man - the David Motherwell on the back of the card (aren't they useful!) is his father (writing from his employer's address). Now I need to understand the link with the 9th Bn High LI (Highland Light Infantry). The family was Belfast based, but possibly the HLI link indicates recent arrival from Scotland?

Now I must do battle with the NA catalogue to see if John Ernest and David have officers record files!

Thanks again

David

[markinbelfast]

Motherwell David 133 University Street Lieutenant R.I.R.

Motherwell James 133 University Street Sergeant R.I.R.

Motherwell J. Ernest 133 University Street Lieutenant H.L.I. Killed in Action

[dfaulder]

Motherwell David 133 University Street Lieutenant R.I.R.

Motherwell James 133 University Street Sergeant R.I.R.

Motherwell J. Ernest 133 University Street Lieutenant H.L.I. Killed in Action

Mark

Many thanks for this, could you tell me the source?

David

[markinbelfast]

May Street Presbyterian church...pm your email addy to me for the full memorial including the names of the other motherwells.

[DMannus]

David

Apologies -should have sourced my info - thought you were in NI! (Doh!)

1910 is the 1910 Belfast Street Directory held at PRONI.

PC stands for Presbyterian Church - Mark has , I hope, updated you re that- Great photos Mark! Well done.

Regards

Daivd

[dfaulder]

QUOTE (DMannus @ Nov 10 2008, 11:49 PM) David

Apologies -should have sourced my info - thought you were in NI! (Doh!)

1910 is the 1910 Belfast Street Directory held at PRONI.

PC stands for Presbyterian Church - Mark has , I hope, updated you re that- Great photos Mark! Well done.

Regards

David

Thanks, still getting into the mysteries of tracing those who have disappeared into the Irish Genealogical Mists! From the wilds of Northumberland, I am searching via any on-line source I can get my hands on.

But made huge progress today (all thanks initially to the Forum member who mentioned that the Institute of Accountants in England and Wales(!) (ICAEW) had put on-line details of members who served in WW1). 3 Motherwells all at sometime in the RIR, DoB & DoD for one, possibly get the others' DoBs after my next visit to Kew in the new year. Also via James's service record the names of their parents but not the mother's maiden name or their DoB/DoM/DoD. (I am wondering if the family were recent Scottish migrants.)

I suspect that for many of the vital dates I will need to visit PRONI. But a visit to ICAEW in London to find out more about David Motherwell may yield results.

Many thanks

David

[dfaulder]

David:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancest...lly/rohpci.html

You could try this website - I've had a quick look at the obvious presb. churches but with no luck.

Good luck.

Mabel

Mabel,

Many thanks - others have mentioned May St and sure enough there they are on your reference although interestingly at 133 University Street when Medal cards, Attestations and the Covenant all have 135 - perhaps they owned both buildings as the Ulster Declaration listed three Motherwell women at that address (135) so seven adults and possibly children (and servants?).

Bookmarked the reference for later use with other names!

David

[keggy65]

David

Not knowing the basis of the information on the website, I can't guarantee the house number but I would suggest that lots of families - and their children, when they married for instance - lived in the same street albeit at different numbers over the years. I know my family certainly did! During my searches it has proved the same for members of my 'other' families in England too.

Mabel

[markinbelfast]

The fact that he signed the covenant in his own hand shows what his address was 135.

spent the day looking for you....bingo..

[dfaulder]

The fact that he signed the covenant in his own hand shows what his address was 135.

spent the day looking for you....bingo..

Mark,

Thanks so very much for this and the extra detail it gave, I was wondering if David Motherwell was actually the elder brother. Was it something that you had seen before and have been struggling to recall, or is there a family connection? Or have you spent a whole day digging through archives for me?

Do you happen to know which paper this was in (or have an educated guess?)

(I have also found (on line) that he is on the Stationer's memorial in St Anne's Cathedral.)

Very many thanks

David

[markinbelfast]

No link with the man...never seen the article before...just spent the day researching from scratch...I've had a lot of help from the forum re getting photos...actually I'm looking for some at the minute!....when I do dig up stuff some say thanks....some don't.

Will be over 133-135 direction...must bring the camera.

[markinbelfast]

Are you researching the brother..James?

[dfaulder]

Are you researching the brother..James?

Mark,

I am looking at all (3?) of the Brothers, David, John Ernest, James.

I have down loaded 21 pages of James' service file (as a A/CQMS and unburnt it is on Ancestry) and the MICs of all 3.

David and John Ernest being Officers (A/Capt and Capt) means I have to go to Kew (I think) for their service records. John Ernest originally enlisted as a private according to his MIC (9th Bn Highland Light Infantry - why, when I think he came from Belfast?), so there may be something (if not burnt) appearing on Ancestry.

I am also short of family background.

Father: David Motherwell DoB/M/D unknown, place of birth unknown

Mother: Catherine/Katherine, maiden name unknown, DOB/M/D unknown

David (jnr): DoB/M/D unknown - believe he had a family

James: DoD unknown, family unknown

Sisters: May, R, and Sissie Motherwell of 135 University St signed the Ulster Declaration, but that is all I know of them - they may have been Aunts or cousins. If they were sisters I wonder if they served in say the FANY or Nursing corps.

Is the 1911 Census available in NI? I notice parts of it on the Belfast Family and Community History website - but not the end of University Street that I am interested in.

I believe that David was some form of accountant. He is listed on the ICAEW (Institute of Chartered Accountant in England and Wales) list of Accountants and their clerks who served in the Great War "With the Colours" (Thanks again to a Forum member who, I think, originally posted this link). However ICAEW say he is not one of theirs, but do note that the principal of the firm he was working for, Martin E Lynas & Co at 7,8 and 9 Ocean Buildings, Belfast was a member of the Irish Institute. (Later Lynas was practicing in London!) I am waiting to hear from ICAI [edit: now heard - they do not know of him - presumably an accountant's clerk?]. David may have been a clerk; his brother James was a cashier (per attestation).

On Ancestry I have seen telephone books that suggest he/his father was at 135 University street until 1921. Then there is a gap before a D Motherwell (possibly not the same one) appears in the 1941 phonebook for an address in Campsie, Balmoral and another in Cherry Valley Gardens. I have not managed to find James Motherwell post medical discharge in June 1918.

Any pointers very welcome - as is a recommendation about a good book about the Royal Irish Rifles in the Great War.

thanks

David

[DMannus]

David

hello again - you're really getting into this one - great effort by Mark - must have spent all day in the Newspaper library!!

You've posted a lot of info and being Friday night I'm sure you'll get a lot more before the weekends out!

The 1911 census is expected to be available online via the Irish National Archive site in Dublin sometime in December or January. (It's going to be free - thanks again Canada)!

The 1901 census is held at PRONI at Balmoral - I hope to be there next week - I'll give it a look for you.

To get you started David Motherwell married Catherine Carlisle at Berry Street Presbyterian church on 7/1/1885.

There is a Motherwell connection with Knock in 1908 which is the same area as Cherryvalley (Posh) but I think it's more likely to be a relocation away from the city centre in the 1920's and 30's.

I'll see what else I can find..

regards

David

I think there may also be a William or two in there- William Carlisle Motherwell married Belle Palmer at Knock PC in 10/8/8. Presbyterian custom included the mothers maiden name as a middle name- don't know which one of the two on the covenant site he is but 1910 street directory shows the one of them as an accountant - I'll need to firm up on this.

Plus a quick thought - I wonder did they attend 'Inst' -Royal Belfast Academic Institution -Presbyterian school in Belfast. There is someone on here researching this subject.

[markinbelfast]

David

hello again - you're really getting into this one - great effort by Mark - must have spent all day in the Newspaper library!!

Another day I'll never get back...

David some day I'll piggy back with you at the public reords to see the ropes...I went before and have never found a crowd to be so unhelpful.

anyway...heres Motherwell Jas. G. 34 Shaftesbury Avenue Private Dorset Regt. Died of Cholera in Baghdad who may well be related

[DMannus]

Mark

more than welcome - I find the place nice and chilled - but , you're right, a bit daunting if you're a bit new to it. I just brazened it out -even when I sent a few hundred metres of microfilm all over the floor!! Security staff are a bit snotty though - feels like your back at school sitting an exam sometimes!! Opening hours not great either but maybe things will change when they move to the Titanic quarter?

Found the Inst link

Magicrat http://www.instgreatwar.com/

However, don't think they went there - Masonic School, Dublin?

David

[markinbelfast]

Cheers will make arrangements to meet up with you....theres loads i'm looking for so need a helping hand pointing me in the right direction would be great. Last time I was there, there was a small male really suffering from little man syndrome working in the place....actually tried to square up to me...if only it had have been anywhere else

[dfaulder]

Will be over 133-135 direction...must bring the camera.

Mark

From Google searching, I think it is now the Chinese Welfare Association and there is a planning application to convert it to flats.

David

[dfaulder]

Found the Inst link

Magicrat http://www.instgreatwar.com/

However, don't think they went there - Masonic School, Dublin?

David

I don't think they went there either - at least J E Motherwell is not on their list

Mark's cutting (do we have a source?) indicates a Masonic connection - but would a "manager" at David Allen be able to afford school fees?

David