Australia wanted or wants to take control over Gallipoli Peninsula

[burlington]

I don't want to stir anything up here, especially in relation to the relative roles and casualties of the various nations involved, BUT is there any truth to this from 1918 onwards?

My information is that Australia made a request for Turkey to cede control of the area to Australia. I suppose a bit like Turkey asking for Tasmania to be ceded to them.

No offence intended, please, but I am only repeating what I have been told by an otherwise reliable (Turkish) source.

Martin

[Fedelmar]

After the recent episode at Gallipoli it is any ones guess.

 

 

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Never believe politics.

Most of this came about after Turkey started to fix the roads around Gallipoli to make it safer for tourists and the big buses to move around.

They had to widen the roads and so destroyed a lot of the ground around Anzac.

This caused some outcry here in aussie and the then Labor opersition got on the band wagon against the Liberal Govt to make it an issue.

Since then the Labor Govt had taken power and so whole thing has disappeared and we have heard no more about it.

Thats is untill the politians get hold of it again.

Then purhaps the now Liberal opersion will take up the baner?

S.B

[Waddell]

Australian politicians looking for a headline Steve? Never.

I seem to remember two politicians being involved in an issue regarding the timing of a Kokoda dawn service a few years back. Wonder what happened to them?

Seriously the television media this morning seem more worried about Turkey's plan to limit numbers to the 2015 dawn service than the removal of any diggers or turkish remains. A little bit strange considering the amount of media attention given to the Fromelles diggers not too long ago.

regards,

Scott.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

This maybe a good idea after all.

I was planing to do the rounds of Gallipoli, Egypt and France during the years 2015 to 2018, thats if god allows and I am still here to fly to these places each year.

So limiting the numbers at Anzac maybe the thing as there should be a great many people there for the 100 years?

S.B

[Auimfo]

Scott,

Although a resurgence in our country's history and remembrance can only be a good thing, I sometimes wonder if Anzac Day at Gallipoli hasn't become just a 'trendy must-do' for some (not all).

To be honest, for most of those I know who have an affinity and understanding of the place and what actually occured, Anzac Day is currently the one day of the year they'd rather avoid being there.

I'm not sure that limiting the numbers is the answer although I can see the merit in the idea, but somewhere along the line we have to strike a balance between the maintainance of the peninsula and it's ability to cope with increasing numbers of visitors. The past and present roadwork scandals do not fit into the criteria at all and are a long way from what I'd call 'balanced'.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Waddell]

Tim,

I couldn't agree more. That's why I questioned the media putting the limiting of numbers attending in 2015 story ahead of the worrying removal of human remains story. It seemed inappropriate. I should have put this in the other thread running at the moment concerning the road work there.

Martin.

Sorry for stealing your thread and deviating from your legitimate question. I have never heard of a request from the Australian Government to Turkey to cede land in the area. As you say, it would be like asking us to give up Tasmania.

Scott.

[Simon Jones]

The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne ceded the land of cemeteries to the British Empire which I understand includes a general area of Second Ridge on the grounds that human remains were so abundant that the whole area was classified as a cemetery. You see the CWGC style notices marking the start of the land as you drive up to Lone Pine.

These are the relevant articles of the Treaty (from http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Treaty_of_Lausanne)

ARTICLE 128.

The Turkish Government undertakes to grant to the Governments of the British Empire, France and Italy respectively and in perpetuity the land within the Turkish territory in which are situated the graves, cemeteries, ossuaries or memorials of their soldiers and sailors who fell in action or died of wounds, accident or disease, as well as those of prisoners of war and interned civil- ians who died in captivity.

The Turkish Government will also grant to those Governments the land which the Commissions provided for in Article 130 shall consider necessary for the establishment of cemeteries for the regrouping of graves, for ossuaries or memorials.

The Turkish Government undertakes further to give free access to these graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials, and if need be to authorise the construction of the necessary roads and pathways.

The Greek Government undertakes to fulfil the same obligations in so far as concerns its territory.

The above provisions shall not affect Turkish or Greek sovereignty over the land thus granted.

ARTICLE 129.

The land to be granted by the Turkish Government will include in particular, as regards the British Empire, the area in the region known as Anzac (Ari Burnu), which is shown on Map No. 3. [see Introduction.] The occupation of the above-mentioned area shall be subject to the following conditions:

(1) This area shall not be applied to any purpose other than that laid down in the present Treaty; consequently it shall not be utilised for any military or commercial object nor for any other object foreign to the purpose mentioned above;

(2) The Turkish Government shall, at all times, have the right to cause this area, including the cemeteries, to be inspected;

(3) The number of civil custodians appointed to look after the cemeteries shall not exceed one custodian to each cemetery. There shall not be any special custodians for the parts of the area Iying outside the cemeteries;

(4) No dwelling houses may be erected in the area, either inslde or outside the cemeteries, except such as are strictly necessary for the custodians;

(5) On the sea shore of the area no quay, jetty or wharfs may be built to facilitate the landing or embarkation of persons or goods;

(6) Such formalities as may be required may only be fulfilled on the coast inside the Straits and access to the area by the coast on the AEgean Sea shall only be permitted after these formalities have been fulfilled. The Turkish Government agrees that these formalities, which shall be as simple as possible, shall not be, without prejudice to the other stipulations of this Article, more onerous than those imposed on other foreigners entering Turkey, and that they should be fulfilled under conditions tending to avoid all unnecessary delay;

(7) Persons who desire to visit the area must not be armed, and the Turkish Government have the right to see to the enforcement of this strict prohibition;

(8) The Turkish Government must be informed at least a week in advance of the arrival of any party of visitors exceeding 150 persons.

ARTICLE 130.

Each of the British, French and Italian Governments shall appoint a commission, on which the Turkish and Greek Governments will appoint a representative, to which will be entrusted the duty of regulating on the spot questions affecting the graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials. The duties of these commissions shall extend particularly to:

(1) the offficial recognition of the zones where burials have or may have already taken place and the registration of cemeteries, ossuaries, or memorials already existing;

(2) fixing the conditions in which, if necessary, graves may in future be concentrated, and deciding, in conjunction with the Turkish representative in Turkish territory and the Greek representative in Greek territory, the sites of the cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials still to be established, and defining the boundaries of these sites in such a way as shall restrict the land to be occupied within the limits indispensable for the purpose;

(3) communicating to the Turkish and Greek Governments in the name of the respective Governments a final plan of their graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials, whether already established or to be established.

ARTICLE 131 .

The Government in whose favour the grant is made undertakes not to employ the land nor to allow it to be employed for any purpose other than that to which it is dedicated. If this land is situated on the coast, the shore may not be employed by the concessionary Government for any military, marine or commercial purpose of whatever nature. The sites of graves and cemeteries which may no longer be used for that purpose and which are not used for the erection of memorials shall be returned to the Turkish or Greek Government.

ARTICLE 132.

Any necessary legislative or administrative measures for the grant to the British, French and Italian Governments respectively of full, exclusive and perpetual use of the land referred to in Articles 128 to 130 shall be taken by the Turkish Government and Greek Government respectively within six months of the date of the notification to be made in accordance with paragraph 3 of Article 130. If any compulsory acquisition of the land is necessary, it will be effected by and at the cost of the Turkish Government or the Greek Government, as the case may be.

ARTICLE 133.

The British, French and Italian Governments may respectively entrust to such organisations as each of them may deem fit the establishment, arrangement and maintenance of the graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials of their nationals. These organisations shall have no military character. They alone shall have the right to undertake the exhumation or removal of bodies necessary for the concentration of graves and establishment of cemeteries and ossuaries, as well as the exhumation and removal of such bodies as the Governments to whom the grant of land is made shall deem it necessary to transfer to their own country.

ARTICLE 134.

The British, French and Italian Governments shall have the right to entrust the maintenance of their graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials in Turkey to custodians appointed from among their own nationals. These custodians shall be recognised by the Turkish authorities and shall receive from them every assistance necessary for the safeguard and protection of these graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials. The custodians shall have no military character, but may be armed for their personal defence with a revolver or automatic pistol.

ARTICLE 135.

The land referred to in Articles 128 to 131 shall not be subjected by Turkey or the Turkish authorities, or by Greece or the Greek authorities, as the case may be, to any form of rent or taxation. Representatives of the British, French or Italian Governments as well as persons desirous of visiting the graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials, shall at all times have free access thereto. The Turkish Government and the Greek Government respectively undertake to maintain in perpetuity the roads leading to the said land.

The Turkish Government and the Greek Government respectively undertake to afford to the British, French and Italian Governments all necessary facilities for obtaining a sufficient water supply for the requirements of the staff engaged in the maintenance or protection of the said graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials, and for the irrigation of the land.

ARTICLE 136.

The British, French and Italian Governments undertake to accord to the Turkish Government the benefits of the provisions contained in Articles 128 and 130 to 135 of the present Treaty for the establishment of graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials of Turkish soldiers and sailors existing on the territories under their authority, including the territories detached from Turkey.

[Ozzie]

Ta Simon.

Kim

[Dogan Sahin]

Hi,

The matter of road works in gelibolu is today all over news..

http://www.haberaktuel.com/Sehit-kemikleri...eri-158928.html

this is just one of them.

regards

[Dogan Sahin]

Hi,

heres another sample news..this time a Turkish language newspaper in australia

Headline : "Don't go overboard Bill!"..The article suggests that Bill Sellars is making a fuss about something that is not correct.. ( http://www.turkishnewsweekly.com/tnwnews.pdf )

Regards

[SiegeGunner]

Unfortunately most of us don't speak Turkish. Could you give us a summary of these articles, please, Dogan.

[Eceabat]

Hi Dogan,

thanks for alerting me to that article, I hadn't seen it. Actually it is basically a compilation of articles in the Turkish and Australian media, including very anti road comments by Professor Haluk Oral.

Much of the validity of the article is shot as it carries a denial that damage has been done or human remains uncovered made by the Turkish ambassador to Australia. Yesterday, the governor of the province of Canakkale acknowledged that human remains had been uncovered during roadworks, so two untruths by the ambassador were exposed in one go.

The main front in this debate has shifted to Turkey, with very strong criticisms of this work and the damage cause appearing in the national print and electronic media over the past two days. What is being said is far tougher than anything that has run in Australia.

Cheers

Bill

[Eceabat]

Hi Dogan,

thanks for alerting me to that article, I hadn't seen it. Actually it is basically a compilation of articles in the Turkish and Australian media, including very anti road comments by Professor Haluk Oral.

Much of the validity of the article is shot as it carries a denial that damage has been done or human remains uncovered made by the Turkish ambassador to Australia. Yesterday, the governor of the province of Canakkale acknowledged that human remains had been uncovered during roadworks, so two untruths by the ambassador were exposed in one go.

The main front in this debate has shifted to Turkey, with very strong criticisms of this work and the damage cause appearing in the national print and electronic media over the past two days. What is being said is far tougher than anything that has run in Australia.

Here are a couple of examples of comments in the Turkish media.

In an article carried by leading Turkish daily Hurriyet on October 27, Professor Haluk Oral, an academic at Bosphorus University and author of the book Gallipoli 1915 Through Turkish Eyes, quoted a few lines written by one of that country’s most famous poets, Mehmet Akif, to the fallen defenders of the peninsula.

“It would be worthy if your ancestors descended from the skies and came to kiss that clean forehead.”

“If their ancestors really did descend to earth, they would have a really hard time to find a forehead to kiss among skulls shattered by bulldozers,” said Oral.

The same article also quoted historian Sahin Aldogan, co-author of a bi-lingual guidebook to the battlefields, as saying after the Anzac Cove incident in 2005 and the protests of Australia and New Zealand it was agreed to find a joint solution to any problems.

“At that time officials from the three countries got together with historians and talked. There the decision was made to carry out no changes in the area without consulting with historians. It was decided that before any decisions, before any bulldozers entered that area, historians should go in first. But we see once again that no one cares about this aspect. The operators of the graders are working, digging everywhere with no care…”

Cheers

Bill

[bob lembke]

Martin.

Sorry for stealing your thread and deviating from your legitimate question. I have never heard of a request from the Australian Government to Turkey to cede land in the area. As you say, it would be like asking us to give up Tasmania.

Scott.

A better analogy would Germany asking France to sign over Verdun to them, or perhaps New Zealand asking Panama to sign over the Panama Canal. Or perhaps Germany asking Russia to hand over Stalingrad. What an idea!

Bob

[bob lembke]

My flip reply was made without seeing the very interesting post from Simon Jones, for example. But can that treaty still be in effect? I am sure that it also has provisions for the berthing of British battleships in the Golden Horn and the provision of coal to them by the Turks. We don't see French troops in the Rhineland or German diplomatic relations with Vichy France.

Bob

[Dogan Sahin]

Unfortunately most of us don't speak Turkish. Could you give us a summary of these articles, please, Dogan.

Please See above, Major-General.

I agree with Bob that the Turkish TNW view is far tougher ...than again, most of commentators in australia of Turkish origin are more fanatical..

regards

[Dogan Sahin]

And yet another one from Australia;

http://www.yenivatan.com.au/article?aktion...n=10&day=31

Headline : yet another lie...Talks about Bill making same claims every year, everytime there is works to make the place a better one for visitors....

rergards

[Bryn]

That's probably because it happens every time. Anybody who's been to Gallipoli and strayed a little off the roads knows there are human bones everywhere. To say there aren't is a straight-out lie.

The whole question of the treaties after WW1 has come up here before and been covered in detail. Might be worth finding that/those threads. Bob, the thing you're missing in your Germany / Verdun analogy is that Turkey lost the war and agreed to terms under these treaties. Are they still in force? I have no idea whether treaties 'expire' or how it works, but there are still American bases in Japan.....

[Dogan Sahin]

Hi,

I have received an email from Yetkin Iscen, a journalist living in canakkale and involved in WW1 history. Looks like he posted same email to many people and pretty much agrees with what is being said here. "The area must be protected at all costs".

the post is titled " We couldn't acoomplish and we won't be able to"

His website : www.gallipoli-1915.org

regards

[Steven Broomfield]

Australian politicians looking for a headline Steve? Never.

Don't worry, old man - you're not alone. The occasional British politician has been known to seek headlines.

[Dogan Sahin]

Hi,

I have just been informed that Bill sellars and his wife have been arrested and spent the night at police station...

[Fedelmar]

Thanks Dogan ... lets hope and pray that all goes well for them.

Please keep us posted.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Bryn]

Dogan, have Bill and Serpil been released? Do you know if it was Eceabat Police station they were held in?

[Eceabat]

Hi Pals,

just thought I would try and clarify things briefly, as you can understand this is rather a busy time for us.

First off, no one has been arrested.

Serpil, Anil Dinc and I had our homes searched late yesterday afternoon, after a warrant was issued by the local prosecutor. We were then taken to give statements to the Gendarme, a process that saw us detained for some four hours. At no time was there any hassle from the Gendarme or other officials, they acted with great professionalism and good manners. Nether Serpil and I have any complaints to make over our treatment from the Gendarme at any stage of this process. A complaint has been made, the prosecutor as is his duty acted upon it and the Gendarme did what was required of them.

We are apparently being investigated over allegations we have carried out digging on the battlefields and removed relics from the area.

This is not the case and our statements reflected this.

These statements have been forwarded to the prosecutor for his evaluation. At this point we do not know if this process stops here or if formal charges will be laid.

Both Serpil and I thank you for your kind thoughts, it is appreciated.

Cheers

Bill Sellars