Tyne Cot Memorial vs. Menin Gate

[SFayers]

Quick couple of questions for the Pals,

Is it true that the Tyne Cot Memorial was created because there was not enough room for all the names of those who went missing in the Ypres Salient to be included on the Menin Gate? According to the CWGC all those commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial died after 16th August 1917 - is there a significance of this cut-off date?

cheers

Steve

[NigelS]

Steve

I would also be interested in the reasoning behind the cut off dates CWGC gives for Menin Gate before 16th August '17 and Tyne Cot for after; My grandfather was killed on the 16th and is on the Menin gate (I wonder if there are others who were killed on the 16th who are on Tyne Cot?). The 16th August was the Battle of Langemarck (3rd Ypres) but don't know whether this has any significance or is merely coincidental (I would have thought using the start of 3rd Ypres as the cut off would have made more sense.) I have doubts about the the too many names idea, as neither monuments was constructed before there must have been a fairly good idea of the numbers involved (CWGC gives that both were unveiled in 1927, so construction of the two monuments must, I would have thought, have run in parallel). It would also be interesting to know why different rules were applied to New Zealand casualties.

NigelS

[Tom Morgan]

I can't give a definitive answer about why that particular date was chosen, but I can explain about the New Zealand Missing.

The Imperial War Graves Commission (as it was then) began thinking about how it was going to commemorate the many, many thousands of men who were missing.

In 1919 it was suggested that the names of the Missing could be carved into stone tablets, and that these tablets could be placed in cemeteries, with the names arranged so that each man would be commemorated in a cemetery near to the place where he was believed to have died.

This idea was dropped in favour of what we see today - architectural monuments which carry the names of the Missing, each covering a specific battle or geographical area.

But the Commission's New Zealand representative, presumably acting on the instructions of his national government, rejected this idea and preferred to stick with the original plan. This is why there are no New Zealand names on the Menin Gate, and this is why the New Zealand Missing are commemorated on lots of small memorials located within cemeteries near to significant New Zealand battle-sites. (For Belgium, these are; The New Zealand Memorial in the centre apse at Tyne Cot, Buttes New British Cemetery and Messines Ridge British Cemetery).

Tom

[NigelS]

Thanks for that Tom, that explains that part of it. Using Geoff's 1914-1921 search engine I've been looking at where the names of members of the London Rifle Brigade and the Queen Victoria Rifles (both part of the 56th Divn) who fell in the salient August through October '17 appear, and the CWGC statement of the 16th August cut off for the Menin Gate is not, apparently, wholly accurate. From a quick scan through for the LRB: all unknown burials up to the 20th September are commemorated on the Menin Gate, after the 1st October at Tyne Cot; for the QVR, with one exception which is at Tyne Cot, all deaths pre the 8th September are on the Menin Gate and after the 26th September at Tyne Cot. Between the before and after dates for each of these battalions there appear to be no unknown burials and only a few known. I suspect that there may be similar patterns for other regiments serving at Ypres at around this time indicating that the cut off date is not the precise 16th August'17 date given by the CWGC, but more likely to be related to a battalions losses through its actions and movements at around that time.

NigelS

[Greyhound]

My grandfather was killed on the 16th and is on the Menin gate (I wonder if there are others who were killed on the 16th who are on Tyne Cot?).

Here's one from our WM.

Name: GARDENER, EDWIN

Initials: E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Age: 19

Date of Death: 16/08/1917

Service No: 41718

Additional information: Son of Mrs. Anne Gardener, of Clifton Ville, Brambridge, Eastleigh, Hants.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 70 to 72.

Memorial: TYNE COT MEMORIAL

[ianw]

It may be that 16th August was designed to represent the second phase of 3rd Ypres but regiments were allowed some flexibility in deciding when their own opening phase finished - perhaps the whole thing was effectively decided by the numbers of casualties. The absolute capacity of the Menin Gate must have been known at the design stage and with it the knowlege that the casualties up to the opening of 3rd Ypres would not fill it.

[j-munden]

Hi guys

I'm just reading Longworth's History of the CWGC ("The Unending Vigil") and this para (p96 in the 1985 edition) may shed some light on the discussion:

"The Menin Gate could hold no more than 60,000 names but it soon became clear that the missing of the salient far exceeded that figure. It was therefore decided to inscribe the names of those who fell after the Battle of Messines in 1917 on screen walls in Tyne Cot cemetery on Passchendaele Ridge. It transpired, however, that even Tyne Cot would not accommodate all the extra names and so the Commission decided to reserve a site at Armentieres for the remainder."

on page 103 there's a further para:

"...the (Menin Gate) memorial could accommodate only 57,000 names and as late as 1925 there was an excess (of names) of nearly 6000.....by the end of that year (1925), the first name panels arrived in Ypres..(with) 54,896 names engraved ..."

I think these paras provide some idea of the logic behind the choice of location for recording those with no known grave - and also the difference between the designed and actual numbers of names for which there was space on the Menin Gate. I suppose there's also a question about the date when the battle of Messines ended, which might have had different interpretations - though I thought that there was a committee sometime during or just after the war which was set up to decide which were the official dates and names for each battle during the war, which might have settled the question about the cut-off date which governed where the name was inscribed.

Does this help, or confuse further?

Cheers

James

[nigelcave]

Worth noting that the cut off date does not apply to the Canadians and Australians killed and with no known grave in Belgium; they are all on the Menin Gate. The Menin Gate was to be the 'Imperial Memorial', representing all parts of the Empire that participated in the Great War; that is why there is a plaque representing the NZ and explaining (if memory serves me right) where the relevant names may be found in Belgium. The NZ Government also forbade the inscribing of personal epitaphs on headstones, a policy it has continued since (well, certainly for WWII).

[SFayers]

Thanks for all your feedback folks - much appreciated!

The 16th August date for the Tyne Cot Memorial always struck me as a bit odd - why not 31st July to mark the start of the 3rd Ypres?

Kind regards

Steve

[Tom Morgan]

We often hear that the Menin Gate was designed, approved and started, without anyone realising just how many names would need to go on it. In other words, they built a memorial that was too small. This assumes that those in charge intended - right from the beginning - to commemorate all the Salient's Missing in that one location. I don't think this is the case. Dominiek Dendooven, in "Menin Gate and Last Post" says that in May 1921 the Director of the Imperial War Graves Commission, Fabian Ware, believed that the Menin Gate would only have to carry about 10,000 names - those of the Missing from the First Battle of Ypres in 1914.

Presumably, then, Ware believed that the Missing from later battles would be commemorated elsewhere. It would be very interesting to find out what provisional plans there were for the locations of the other memorials which would be needed.

It was later that it was decided that the Menin Gate would ideally have to carry the names of all the Salient's Missing, and I think it must have been realised right from the start that there wouldn't be room.

Tom

[stevem49]

The cut off date was the night of 15/16th August for the Menin Gate, coincides with the Battle of Langemarck which began on 16th August. So Battle of Langemarck men should be on Tyne Cot.

Menin Gate - Aussies, SA, Indian and canadian troops for the entire war.

Tyne Cot - British from 16th August 1917 and NZ has an apse as part of the memorial. NZ decided that their memorials should be close to battles fought - so Messines, Polygon Wood, Tyne Cot etc.

The most men from a British Regiment at Tyne Cot are Lancashire Fusiliers with 1.304 names. NZ - Otago Regiment with 287 men.

steve m

[chrislock]

Also all missing Newfoundlanders wherever missing, are on their Somme memorial.

[Tom Morgan]

Also all missing Newfoundlanders wherever missing, are on their Somme memorial.

Chris is absolutely right. But due to an error there is one interesting irregularity. In this case it's Second Lieutenant H. G. Barrett, of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment. This officer is on the Newfoundland Memorial to the Missing at Beaumont Hamel, but also on the Tyne Cot Memorial to the Missing due to a clerical error. Until recently, Tyne Cot was listed by CWGC as his only place of commemoration. This has now been corrected, with his place of commemoration being given as Beaumont Hamel, but the inscription at Tyne Cot will probably remain for some time.

Tom

[dfaulder]

>><<Second Lieutenant H. G. Barrett, of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment ... is on the Newfoundland Memorial to the Missing at Beaumont Hamel, but also on the Tyne Cot Memorial to the Missing due to a clerical error. Until recently, Tyne Cot was listed by CWGC as his only place of commemoration. This has now been corrected, with his place of commemoration being given as Beaumont Hamel, but the inscription at Tyne Cot will probably remain for some time.

Do I gather from the final sentence that names can come off memorials (for instance, if a body is found and identified)? If so, how is this done?

David

[bruce]

Yes......there are some panels on Thiepval where names have been filled in. This is on another current thread.

Am I also right in thinking that all members of the British west Indies Regt. who died and have no known grave on the Salient are on the Menin Gate? There is a solitary panel with just the six names on it. I know that the BWIR wasn't there for long, hence the small number of names, and also that the British Army was racist at the time and so buried and commemorated black troops separately.

[roel22]

Changes can be made during standard maintenance of the panels. This is why it can take some time when errors are corrected or names removed. Terry Denham has commented on this before.

Roel