was it all worth it?

[Skipman]

What would the men who fought and died in ww1 make of society today?,with jails bursting with scum,alcoholics getting £200/wk(a case i know of) prisoners watching tv and running criminal gangs from inside etc etc etc......would they have thought their sacrifice and agony worthwhile?

[Guest tafski]

ask yourself if they haddnt would the world be in an even greater mess ?

tafski

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Europe would be a nice ordered society, part of the German Empire.

[J T Gray]

I suspect the mods will kill this as too close to politics, but I'll weigh in with this while it's still kicking.

How would you like to live somewhere where the threat of the workhouse was a reality, kicked out of your home and seperated from your family for the "crime" of losing your job? Even if you have a house, no running water or electricity unless you are rich or lucky. Wife-beating, violence and drunkenness are rampant, and gangs armed with weapons carried quite legally (no gun control laws until 1926 - passed largely to control weapons bought back as "souvenirs", so much for the virtues of National Service) roam the streets? Prostitutes parading openly in society? And jails bursting with "scum" - why do you think the Victorians built so many prisons? For fun?

That's the society that the men who fought and died in WW1 lived in.

Read a newspaper from the time, and see what it was like. Times change - humanity doesn't! There never was a Golden Age, and there never will be!

Adrian

[elle72]

You know what they should have done.....found a really big island on the other side of the world and then shipped off all the dregs of society there - ooops, I forgot, they already did that

Elle *smiling sheepishly as she kicks the convict family skeletons back into her wardrobe*

[Skipman]

I suspect the mods will kill this as too close to politics, but I'll weigh in with this while it's still kicking.

How would you like to live somewhere where the threat of the workhouse was a reality, kicked out of your home and seperated from your family for the "crime" of losing your job? Even if you have a house, no running water or electricity unless you are rich or lucky. Wife-beating, violence and drunkenness are rampant, and gangs armed with weapons carried quite legally (no gun control laws until 1926 - passed largely to control weapons bought back as "souvenirs", so much for the virtues of National Service) roam the streets? Prostitutes parading openly in society? And jails bursting with "scum" - why do you think the Victorians built so many prisons? For fun?

That's the society that the men who fought and died in WW1 lived in.

Read a newspaper from the time, and see what it was like. Times change - humanity doesn't! There never was a Golden Age, and there never will be!

Adrian

Fair enough, point taken,ww1 was all about politics,this is surely relevant."was it worth it?" of course not ,and though you are maybe right to say society then was as bad,if not worse than now,i think there were many things better,and more innocent,than now.

[elle72]

Its actually a very hard question to answer, particularly if you compare the circumstances of the individual against the greater good......

Im 100% convinced that my GGM did not think the war was worth the death of her eldest son, who's body was never found, who just disappeared off the face of the earth never to be seen or heard of again. What did the war mean to her when she lived in peace on the other side of the world far away from the Germans?

Then again, if you compared her to a mother in France, living in occupied territory perhaps who had lost her way of life, seen her house blown to bits and been forced to flee the German occupation, then the war might have been worth it to her.

I would rather my great uncle have had the chance to live, to get married and have children of his own. But then in the back of my mind I think of the school in Villers Bretonneux that says 'Remember the Australians' and it reminds me that men died so that village could be rebuilt and those people could go back to their home and 90 years later the kids at that school could speak their own language.

Its a tricky one.

[Skipman]

Its actually a very hard question to answer, particularly if you compare the circumstances of the individual against the greater good......

Im 100% convinced that my GGM did not think the war was worth the death of her eldest son, who's body was never found, who just disappeared off the face of the earth never to be seen or heard of again. What did the war mean to her when she lived in peace on the other side of the world far away from the Germans?

Then again, if you compared her to a mother in France, living in occupied territory perhaps who had lost her way of life, seen her house blown to bits and been forced to flee the German occupation, then the war might have been worth it to her.

I would rather my great uncle have had the chance to live, to get married and have children of his own. But then in the back of my mind I think of the school in Villers Bretonneux that says 'Remember the Australians' and it reminds me that men died so that village could be rebuilt and those people could go back to their home and 90 years later the kids at that school could speak their own language.

Its a tricky one.

Well put,am again reminded that a question asked can be a can of worms,and that an answer can,really make you think,wow! i should have thought it through.

[John_Hartley]

A good read of the local newspapers of the time will dispel the myths of "Golden Age".

Crimes of violence towards women and children, in particular, were much more tolerated and punished far less severely than nowadays. There will have been wives glad to wave their husbands off to war and hope he might not return. Except, of course, with no welfare state and only the start of opportunities for women to work, many widows had little choice but to remarry.

And as for the social ills of alcohol abuse - by comparison we live in almost tee-total socety.

I do like a good "what if" thread, though. So, I wonder "what if" the men who had fought at Waterloo were still alive in Edwardian times, what would they have about society?

My grandad, Tom, who fought in the War, lived to a ripe old age. He had a far better life than his parents. He, and his generation, returned home and, through politcial action, brought about great beneficial changes for working people in society. My father, who fought in WW2, and didnt have such a long life, returned home and, no doubt, helped to elect a Labour government which brought about even more rights for working people. His son was always active in his trade union helping to solidify those rights. I reckon three generations of Broughs and Hartleys have helped to make Britain the great place it is to live in today. I hate it when folk knock what we have here.

John

[welshdoc]

Prehaps we should re-ask the question when petrol reaches £2 a litre and your car tax doubles. Whoops thats about midnight tonight

Im sure though the question being asked is in light of the theft of the Plymouth memorials. When I see the news and the misery around I get very depressed and wonder if all their efforts were indeed worthwhile. Then I see the politicians are to get an extra £24k in expenses and I know the answer.

[redorchestra]

I wonder how many people joined up to protect the British way of life as it was then anyway. I imagine many of those who had come from the mines or the factories or the slums were probably pretty glad to escape it!

I know what you mean though, I have this thought sometimes when I walk past my local war memorial and see the local yobs swearing and fighting nearby. I wonder if they ever stop think about what it means. Doubt it!

[59165]

There will have been wives glad to wave their husbands off to war and hope he might not return.

John

Reminds me of 'local hero' Bobby Thompson.

He was at Central station ,heading off to WW2 with his wife & Ma in law to see him off.

'Good riddance to bad rubbish'says Ma as the train leaves.

'But Mam,you'll miss him too,wont you?'says daughter.

'Aye pet.that I will'

'I just hope the Germans divvent'.

Life & your own country are what you make of them.

If disillusioned,I go to France & listen to the folk of my generation whine on about the good old days.

Plus ca change,toujours la meme connerie.

[truthergw]

Some of the men who marched off to the Great War and survived, came back and formed the razor gangs who terrorised the Gorbals in Glasgow. Read " No Mean City" or watch the DVD of the film, some time. There were similar gangs in the East End of London , Liverpool and so on and so on. There were some canny Geordies kicking around between the wars as well. Time to drop this golden heroes every one stuff.

[salesie]

It's quite true that a "golden age" never existed - it's a figment of each and every individual generations imagination, usually around 40 to 50 years ago - back to a time when we were children and our awareness of the complications of the big bad world were very limited. But, as has already been pointed out, from a working class standard of living point of view much progress has been made since 1914 - so, if those who thronged the recruiting offices back then thought their way of life worth fighting and dying for, surely they'd think the same today?

Same Difference?

Tick-tock, tick-tock,

Time marches on says the clock!

Onwards, forwards, into our future,

Content in knowing progress is our suitor.

But when looking back at our forefathers stance,

Have we, in fact, made any advance?

Healthier, richer, with all the mod cons;

No wonder we think we’re the chosen ones.

Though when peering at their ancient game,

Didn’t they think exactly the same?

We shout insane; they argued they fought!

But aren’t our lives equally fraught?

We fight, we argue, agree about little,

Could it just be our world is as brittle?

Tick-tock, tick-tock,

Simply marking time says the clock?

© John Sales 2001.

Cheers-salesie.

[John_Hartley]

Namby pamby "political correctness gone mad" soft liberal Edwardian justice.

Taken from the Daily Mirror, 25 June 1914:

A burglar, George Pearson, got sentenced to 18 months hard labour. I reckon today's burglars would thank the judge for such a lenient stretch

A professional comedian, Adam Arthur, got 2 years for what was described as "an offence" against a 13 year girl. The judge commented that he would have given a heavier sentence had he been able. Current maximum for a similar "consensual" offence is 14 years - Arthur would think the judge was having a laff.

[Steven Broomfield]

I'm currently reading Vanity Fair

I'm not sure Colonel Rawdon Crawley, CB was a great advert for the heroes of Waterloo, living off tick obtained from poor people and bankrupting his family's ex-retainer into the process.

Not sure Amelia osborne and little Georgy were terribly well provided-for.

Standards change, but people don't - as my old mum said, if I had wheels, I'd be a bicycle.

[59165]

If you had wheels,you'd wheely be a suitcase

[JimSmithson]

If we had had wheely suitcases in 1914 it would have all been over by Christmas - they are deadly in a crowd, chopping legs left right and centre.

[dutchbarge]

Read a newspaper from the time, and see what it was like. Times change - humanity doesn't! There never was a Golden Age, and there never will be!

Adrian

Exactly my sentiments. I think in general, living in the first world, that things have probably never been better than they are now, despite all the problems. Of course many would argue that we're enjoying all this at the expense of the third world, sorry, developing nations. Cheers, Bill

Read a newspaper from the time, and see what it was like. Times change - humanity doesn't! There never was a Golden Age, and there never will be!

Adrian

Exactly my sentiments. I think in general, living in the first world, that things have probably never been better than they are now, despite all the problems. Of course many would argue that we're enjoying all this at the expense of the third world, sorry, developing nations. Cheers, Bill

Read a newspaper from the time, and see what it was like. Times change - humanity doesn't! There never was a Golden Age, and there never will be!

Adrian

Exactly my sentiments. I think in general, living in the first world, that things have probably never been better than they are now, despite all the problems. Of course many would argue that we're enjoying all this at the expense of the third world, sorry, developing nations. Cheers, Bill

[montbrehain]

No

[Grovetown]

I'd rather live in the stews of London of 2008 than of 1898. Ditto the countryside if a member of the 'agricultural' classes.

For all our issues, city, and rural, life was hellish - for the poor and/ or working class - in Victorian times, and it is immeasurably better now.

One must remember the accounts of many lads who joined up - beyond patriotism - for half-decent pay, decent food, decent clothing and escape from a life of grinding, downtrodden poverty.

Best wishes,

GT.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Yes it was worth it, we have nobody to blame for the events today except ourselves, our choice of governments and the fact that we roll over and giggle when we have our bellies stroked by politicians.

For example, I was struck by a thought at Thiepval, the ceremonies being taken over by personalities who are feted as being bigger than the event. The individuals who wish to lay their wreaths and crosses can lay them at the end of the service......I'm sorry but these people who have travelled large distances (without a chaufeur) to remember a relative shoud be the first up those steps. When I see people herded to one side to make way for the politicians and hangers on it makes me wonder.

Mick

[truthergw]

I think the rationale is that these people are NOT private individuals. They represent many people especially people who cannot be there in person. Would you apply your views to the Armistice Sunday Service at the Cenotaph? You think that the High Commissioners of the Commonwealth countries should tag along at the end of the march past? I do not necessarily disagree but I don't think it is likely to happen any time soon.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Yes I do think that they should tag along at the end.

[John_Hartley]

When I see people herded to one side to make way for the politicians and hangers on it makes me wonder.

I may have told this story before - so apologies if I have. Told to me by an elderly descendent of the Wrench brothers commemorated on the nearby Cheadle War Memorial.

The story goes that, at the official unveiling ceremony, chairs were set out for the local bigwigs whilst most of the villagers stood. Someone spotted Elizabeth Lee and Harriett Wrench in the crowd and shouted out to those seated "Get up you so-and-so's. There's Mrs Lee and Mrs Wrench left standing there - and they've each lost three lads".

There followed a bit of sheepish muttering and shuffling before chairs were made available for the two women.