Martinsart tragedy

[Desmond7]

This is the anniversary of the famous incident when a large number of men from the 13th Royal Irish Rifles were killed by a single shell as they marched up to the trenches from Martinsart on the eve of the 'big push' - they were the first of a terrible number who were to die from this Btn in the next few days.

Remembering.

General Directions: Martinsart is a small village 4 kilometres north of Albert. The cemetery is on the south side of the village on the road (D129) to Aveluy. The cemetery is signposted in the centre of Martinsart.

Martinsart was close to the Allied front line until September 1916, and again from March to August 1918. Martinsart British Cemetery was begun at the end of June 1916, when 14 men of the 13th Royal Irish Rifles, killed by a shell, were buried in what is now Plot I, Row A. It was used as a front-line cemetery until October 1916 and again in September 1918, when bodies were brought in from the battlefields for burial by V Corps. After the Armistice, the cemetery was enlarged when more graves were brought in from the area north, east and south of the village.

[toofatfortakeoff]

Was just up there two weeks ago. RIP.

[pietro]

I was there with my father a lot of years ago - my grandfather served in the 13th. The anniversary of the death of his friend that he joined up with was yesterday, a few of them were killed by shrapnel on the 27th July.

Peter

[tommy mcclimonds]

The soldiers killed from the 13th Royal Irish Rifles were all from Dromore or Banbridge. Below is a photo of the row of headstones that started Martinsart Cemetery. Remembered with Honour - Tommy.

[tommy mcclimonds]

The Memorial to this tragedy that was unveiled last July 2007. This is located on the wall of the "Marie in Mesnil".

[tommy mcclimonds]

The two Riflemen from Banbridge who were killed were Rfm (87) James (John) Carson from, The Straits, Lurgan Road, Banbridge and Rfm (137) David Dale from Weirs Row, Seapatrick - Tommy.

Remembered with Honour.

[pietro]

Well done Tommy, great photos and info.

Peter

[tommy mcclimonds]

The Memorial Plaque to Rifleman James Carson. As a bandman Rifleman James Carson played a flute in the band of the 13th Battalion, Royal Irish Rifles. The Plaque is retained by his granddaughter and is still proudly on display in the family home. Not Forgotten.

[tommy mcclimonds]

I forgot to mention earlier that further details on the 9 soldiers from Dromore, Co Down, who were killed outright

Bell, Thomas John

Jones, Alexander

Darragh, William

Martin, Joseph

or died of their wounds later

Ledgett, John

Brown, Thomas

Burns, Arthur

Frame, David

Guiney, Stanley

can be found in "Dromore's Great War Heroes", by Jeffrey Martin published in 2006. A number of the other soldiers killed or who died later from wounds due to this tragedy were from the area around Hillsborough, Co Down.

Regards, Tommy.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I will go and say hello for you Tommy.

Mick

[swizz]

Here is another picture of the graves, taken in the late 1920s.

Swizz

[Just Barbara]

My Grandfather, John Alexander Whitley was in the Rifles. He came from Holywood county Down. After the war he called his house Martinsart, I've often wondered if he was there.

Barbara

p.s. Is it okay to snag the pictures?

Barbara

[swizz]

Barbara

Feel free to save the picture I posted!

I like the story about the house - I think its interesting to hear about former soldiers choosing to call their houses after battlefields. Was the house called Martinsart in Holywood too?

In the past I have wondered how the old soldiers who lived in Ex-service housing felt about their address being, for example, Thiepval Avenue. Obviously some were very positive about it!

Swizz

[Just Barbara]

Barbara

Feel free to save the picture I posted!

I like the story about the house - I think its interesting to hear about former soldiers choosing to call their houses after battlefields. Was the house called Martinsart in Holywood too?

In the past I have wondered how the old soldiers who lived in Ex-service housing felt about their address being, for example, Thiepval Avenue. Obviously some were very positive about it!

Swizz

Swizz, yes Grandads house was in Holywood, it was an ex-sericemans house as well ( Dad called it a Haigh Home). The house next door was called Jutland....

Barbara

[swizz]

Barbara

That's really interesting. Do you know who named the houses?

Swizz

[Just Barbara]

Swizz, I was told that the men themselves named their houses, the neighbour had fought at Jutland, sadly I don't know the names of the others.

Barbara

[jansanderson]

Swizz and Barabara

this should maybe be a separate thread but as Swizz raised the question of whether ex servicemen may or may not be inclined to name their houses with reference to their service I have posted here. I have a brochure about the War Memorial Village, Lancaster which was built to house "those disabled men of the The King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) who will have prior claim." The remainder were alloted to "local men incapacitated by the Great War". A list of Regiments represented over the years to WW2 shows men from 12 other regiments had used the facilities.

The link to your post is that the majority of houses have names linked to WW1 Battles, a list shows that some were individually donated by business and private people but 3 were identified as having been donated by the KORR and I would assume they would approve of the names given ie Le Cateau donated by 1st Bn KORR, Doiran = 2nd Btn Korr and Ypres = Depot KORR.

The brochure was issued during WW2 with the purpose of raising funds to build more houses to accommodate the disabled of the Second War

Incidentally during my research into the family's history I have been told of a branch living in south Yorkshire where children were named after WW1 battles, Verdun is the one which comes to mind but there was another child also landed with a Battle for a name which I can'g just remember at the moment

Jan

[pietro]

I know 3 streets off Cregagh Rd in Belfast are Thiepval, Somme and Albert Drive, but I presume they were council named when they were being built. I must check sometime to see if any of the houses have particular names on them too.

Peter

[markinbelfast]

Verdun Terrace on the Ballygomartin....me?..I live in pilot villas!

[Guest KevinEndon]

If I go to a cemetery and see a soldier buried in 1 A 1 then thats the first row and the first grave, the next grave should be 1 A 2 and so on. Why are the men above all in 1 A 1. According to the CWGC RSM Beaston is 1 A 1, then when you look up the next man Bell TJ is down as being in 1 A 1 should that not be 1 A II or 1 A 2.

Hope someone can tell me why this cemetery is different.

i am sitting here praying I am not making a fool of myself, and its a simple answer because its a mass grave, but even then it should go up in order.

Kevin

[Steven Broomfield]

I imagine the answer is the mass grave thing. There are (according to the plaque in post 5 from Tommy) 14 burials in 1 A 1, but Tommy's picture in post 4 shows 16 headstones.

I imagine the 14 burials were in a mass grave, so although each soldier is 'known' - i.e., they know he's there - the individual graves weren't noted: all in together, so it's one grave with 16 headstones. But why 16 headstones for 14 men?

[tommy mcclimonds]

Mick

Thanks for taking the time to visit Martinsart Cem. I am afraid my visit will have to wait until November.

Barbara

Feel free to save my pictures.

Pietro

The area to which you refer, of the Cregagh Road, is know locally (I think) as "The Colony" and is close to "Cregagh War Memorial. As far as I recall the houses in the area were built for returning ex-servicemen.

For those interested - The 13th Royal Irish Rifles War Diary entry for 28th June states;

(part only) The Battalion left MARTINSART by half platoons at about 10pm. in the following order D, A, and C Coy's. On arrival A Coy took over the front line from the 11th Royal Irish Rifles and remained in the assembley trenches, D Coy went into the left of the line and C Coy into ANTRIM VILLAS. Just as the last platoon of C Coy was fallen in and going to march off, a large shell struck their faces, and there were 14 Rank and file killed on the spot, 7 died of wounds later and 32 were wounded amongst them Major R.D.P. Maxwell and the Adjutant Lieut. W. M Wright.

Those killed were Battalion Sergeant Major Beatson, Coy Sergeant Major McCoy, 17379, Rifleman Crawly R. 17856, W Heenang. 16841, Mercer, T. 17492, Crangle, A. 16230, Bell, T. 16867, Martin, J. 2370, Hamilton, S. 16425, Thompson, J. 16567, Hamilton, S. 16425, Darragh, W. 16641, Jones A. 87, Carson J. 137, Dale D. Capt A. T. Bell was wounded.

Regards, Tommy.

[pietro]

Thanks again for the info Tommy, not being a Belfast local, I don't know too much about the Cregagh. My Grandfather was in C company. I presume the Major Maxwell was Robert Perceval-Maxwell from Finnebrogue estate?

Verdun Terrace is a good one too, Mark.

Peter

[Terry Denham]

Kevin

The numbering on CWGC headstones refers to the number of graves rather than the number of headstones.

So, if there is more than one body in a grave, each of those bodies will have the same grave number but they could have two headstones (sometimes both names will be on one stone but not always). Therefore, the grave numbers on the headstones will not always match the number of stones! Eg - in a row of twelve graves where two of them contain two bodies and the rest only one, you can have fourteen headstones. If the first grave in the row was one containing two bodies and the second grave only had one, then the man in the second grave could have headstone No.3!

This was explained in detail in the old CWGC registers but the warning has not always been transerred to the new versions available in most cemeteries and online. Basically, it means that, in cemeteries where this is the situation, the body of a particular man is not necessarily under the stone which bears his name.

[Terry Denham]

I have checked and this cemetery is one where this situation exists according to the original register.