trenchtrotter Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 A conundrum for you all, An on line auction house has a German block cammo helmet for sale with a post home label attached. The label bears the date 5/18. It was my understanding that cammo was not authorised / introduced until 8/18? The label is stuck on the exterior paint and must have been applied after the helmet was painted. Am I wrong with the date cammo was introduced or were helmets painted before the official order. It is the regulation paint pattern? Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Baer notes that trials with helmets painted in various shades seperated by a finger-wide black stripe had concluded as of 7 July 1918, so it may be that a captured camo helmet from during the preceding trial period might be dated in May of that year. A directive from Ludendorff insructing which camouflage paint designs should be applied to their helmets by the troops in the field was dated that day, 7 July 1918. According to Baer helmets with the camouflage finish by the factory were authorized as of 15 July 1918 - these factory produced paint jobs being called 'mimicry paint'. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Cammo on German helmets is a huge subject but cammo appeared before the date of the official design guidelines (July '18) stating an standard style (lozenge pattern) with official colours - green, yellow ocre and rust brown (in summer). You will find huge variations in colours and patterns across various examples. Is it a US post label? - US forces sent home tens of thousands of these things. Can you post some pics - as you probably know of all 14-18 collectibles, German helmets are probably the most 'difficult' to buy right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 13 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Thanks....its currently on the big cyber house. Its a British post home!! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 TT, Max Poilu is right that forms of self-camouflage of helmets by the troops existed prior to the official tests and regulations of the summer of 1918. However your description of the helmet in question sounded rather more like that of the official design guidelines developed through testing immediately prior to July 1918, than the ad hoc efforts of troops making it up as they went along before that date. Pics would certainly help! ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 This is a very typical lozenge pattern in the summer colours. However, a look through any decent reference book (ie Haselgroves Helmets of the First World War) will illustrate a myriad of variations and non-conformity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 An excellent helmet example Max - and some tantalising glimpses of a sword collection in the background! For comparison of some of the different colour schemes and black dividing line contours, here's some pics of the centrepiece of my Stahlhelm collection, an M17 (steel liner band) with the insignia of the 8yh company, 1st Foot Guards Regiment. The interior shot (shown in a follow-up post) shows the plain base colour of the helmet, whilst the exterior sports an autumn pattern of two shades of green (one of which consists of the original base colour of the helmet) and two of brown. A very similar helmet from the same unit appears on p.62 of Baer. And although the official directives for painting these helmets did not appear until July 1917, it's worth bearing in mind Baer's observation that the vast majority of surviving examples helmets with the officially specified camo paint finishes are actually on M16 helmet shells which were still in service in the last 18 months of the war. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Hi George - not mine unfortunately. I only have one German steel helmet, a good M16 example with decent remains of original cammo paint. Not as vivid as the one above but good enough and all original which as you know is all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 The helmet interior colour: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Hi George - not mine unfortunately. I only have one German steel helmet, a good M16 example with decent remains of original cammo paint. Not as vivid as the one above but good enough and all original which as you know is all that matters. Ah, a pity - I was interested to hear what those swords were! And yes, originality is what matters. I basically stopped buying some years ago, and consolidated what I had at that point. I'd hate to be starting out today, it's such a minefield of out and out repros, or rebuilt or refurbished 'dug' items. Some (make that most) of the German helmets on ebay beggar belief, and yet people are bidding on them! TT's original question referencing a posted home helmet is interesting. As you rightly said, large numbers of these were shipped back to the States by doughboy souvenier hunters, with just an address label glued on. It's less common to find one sent back from France to Blighty in this fashion - so TT's example is of interest for that alone. I've known collectors who, after acquiring one of these posted home trophy helmets, have removed the address label in order to have an 'untampered' helmet. But my own view is that these address labels are now part of that individual helmet's history, with their wartime frankings, and the name of the addressee (and often the sender) gives a link to the allied soldier who acquired it in France (some of the labels even have notes saying when they picked it up). So I think these labels should be cherished and preserved with the helmet - what do others think? ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 This site is one I often flag up for Pickelhaube pics but if you scroll down there are some good M16/17 pics too - click on the photos for more. http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Imperial/01Imperial1.html George, I think this is my M16 below. I know it sounds ridiculous but I cannot remember, all my militaria has been in storage and I have not seen it for ages... The pics are all mixed up in my 'helmets' folder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Another nice example, Max, with yet more variant colours. The rear liner rivet appears missing - does it have a liner? If there were enough collectors on the forum it might be possible to create a thread sometime with good quality photos of the various colours and designs used on both plain and camo helmets. Regards, George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Somebody needs to post the link to the subject of this thread. It has sold now anyway! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A:IT&ih=020 It looks straight enough to me. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Thanks for that, Guy, and yes I agree, it looks 'right'. Don't know what these guys used for glue, but they seem so have saturated the labels so that it hardens to almost a protective surface glaze. And as in this case, the label often survives in better nick than the paint work . The helmet seems to have lain for many years in a damp environment - shed or garage, perhaps - and I suspect that when seen 'in the metal' that rust will appear even worse than it does in the pics. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 Very nice indeed - if you are going to have only one that is a true beauty. George, rear rivet was gone IIRC, mine did have an original liner but very shrunken and fragile. I actually sold it which I regret now but it sold for 2/3 what the helmet cost me. I will have to get another helmet, keep the liner, sell the shell... I could not agree more about the label - sacrilege to remove it, to me it hugely enhances the appeal. Examples here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hudsonswhistle Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 An excellent helmet example Max - and some tantalising glimpses of a sword collection in the background! For comparison of some of the different colour schemes and black dividing line contours, here's some pics of the centrepiece of my Stahlhelm collection, an M17 (steel liner band) with the insignia of the 8yh company, 1st Foot Guards Regiment. The interior shot (shown in a follow-up post) shows the plain base colour of the helmet, whilst the exterior sports an autumn pattern of two shades of green (one of which consists of the original base colour of the helmet) and two of brown. A very similar helmet from the same unit appears on p.62 of Baer. And although the official directives for painting these helmets did not appear until July 1917, it's worth bearing in mind Baer's observation that the vast majority of surviving examples helmets with the officially specified camo paint finishes are actually on M16 helmet shells which were still in service in the last 18 months of the war. ciao, GAC PLEASE DONT BE OFFENDED BUT THIS HELMET LOOKS LIKE A VERY POOR COPY TO ME, THE PAINT SCHEME IS FAR TO NEW, AND THE INSIGNIA LOOKS LIKE ITS BEEN ARTIFICIALLY AGED, BUT IT MIGHT BE THE PICTURES ONLY MY OPINION SORRY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 13 October , 2007 Share Posted 13 October , 2007 None taken, Hudson. In fact it's been remarked upon over the years by more than one veteran collector whilst actually handling this helmet that, if they'd seen a photograph of it first they'd probably wrongly have thought it a repaint, but that 'in the metal' there's no doubt but that it's unretouched and original. You're no doubt aware that most things tend to look in better nick in photographs than in reality - hence my observation that the ebay helmet which was the subject of this thread is almost certainly even rustier than it appears in the pics. As to the patina on the deliberately toned-down white of the insignia on 1 Footguards helmet this does appear more aged on photographs - particularly under flash - than does the darker main paintwork - but this is not unusual, check out, for example, the colour pics of unit badged examples in Baer. But you don't get that impression holding the piece, as everything is equally aged. The helmet is a first-class example, with a liner band and split pins that have clearly never been loosened never mind removed - but it's not as unmarked as it appears in photos! And the leather of the liner is, I'm afraid, really rather fragile though this is not at all apparent in the pic. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll take a couple of it outdoors without artificial light. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 GAC I'm in the same boat as you on this. I have a M17 camoflage helmet that is in a similar condition to yours. I bought it from a Dutch dealer who doubted its authenticity, so he obviously felt like Hudson. 'If its to good to be true then it probably is'. In the case of my helmet it has Autumn colour camo, with narrow lines. The lines look like then have been formed by using some form of fabric tape as you can see a regular ragged edge in close up. Whoever painted it took a lot care. The paint is quite aged and has darkened in many areas. The liner looks almost new but is unlike any repo I have ever seen, and the interior paintwork is just like yours. I also know that my helmet came originally from the North German coast - Baltic - area from a quiet country town. I have to look at these alternatives for my helmet. Is it a genuine M17 shell and band? - Yes Is it a recent re-paint? - No Is it an un-issued helmet? - Maybe Is the liner repro? - doubtful Has the helmet seen operational use? - Minimal if at all, but the liner has been worn. For me I have to guess that I either have a genuine nearly new condition M17 camo helmet that was looked after for a long time or I have a helmet that was repainted at least 50 years ago. I don't believe a helmet has to be very battered to be authentic. I have shown it to one dealer in Kent who thought it to be the real thing. I'll post some photos this evening when I have more time. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 What a minefield we have here, the addition of a few blocks of paint increases the value by such a large sum i'm surprised we see any that haven't been cammed. I wonder if there is a simple test to see if they are modern paints other than the smell test? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 It's very difficult when you are dealing with Stahlhelm being sold as truly 'mint' whether cammo or not. However, the majority of genuine examples out there have a good degree of wear, patina and rust intermingled with the paint that is quite difficult to replicate. As with all militaria I guess it comes down to handling a variety and getting a feel for the patina and 'look'. Good examples are not that rare though - I remember reading that virtually every small sorting office in the US was handling hundreds of these 'send homes' each month in 1918. This one for instance I would want a closer up look - the paint looks artificially aged and rubbed: http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-WWI-German-CAMO-ST...1QQcmdZViewItem This one is looking better but again you need sharp close ups of the paint: http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-NICE-WWI-GERMAN-C...1QQcmdZViewItem Happier with this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-WWI-IDd-Germa...1QQcmdZViewItem Two more examples of the sort of patina to look out for - difficult to fake this sort of thing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 What a minefield we have here, the addition of a few blocks of paint increases the value by such a large sum i'm surprised we see any that haven't been cammed. I wonder if there is a simple test to see if they are modern paints other than the smell test? Mick Dead right Mick. If only there was a simple test for the paint. I expect all the original paint had lead in it but also I think modern paint looks just that - modern. I've come across loads of complete M16 and M17 helmets in the last few years, most have been way outside my collecting budget. All the modern repaints I've seen do look like repaints. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 A couple of points. I am lucky enough to own two, which I believe to be genuine. For the simple reason that both were bought many years ago, and for almost nothing. (both without liners) A word of caution though One helmet came to me for a pound (in about 1974) painted silver over bright green by a child with modelling paints . After careful and painstaking removal of at least two horrible layers, it revealed the original camo underneath. The result though, (due to the chemical effects of the paint removal process) is a look and a finish, that would probably be instantly dismissed by a purchaser. Yet I know it to be genuine. Re painting these helmets has been a cottage industry for some years, and people are very good at it. I saw one that looked superb, (and very similar to No 8), but when you turned it over, it was actually a relic that had been lead filled to make it smooth again and weighed a ton! It had been bought in France. (The owner knew it to be a repaint, so had not been ripped off, but who knows next time it is sold?) With regars to the liners, there are some truly amazing copies of these around. They look and feel very good indeed, even down to the German stampings. I believe that the only way to tell is to get them under an ultra violet light. Some of the stitching will then flouress. If it does, it is a copy. I will try and post some pics later. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 14 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Here some more examples for comparison. Different styles and colours. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Just to add to the pile. This helmet was a relatively recent acquisition. The collector who sold it to me no longer felt confident that he had a genuine example. Some dealers told him it was a re-paint and had sewn enough seeds of doubt that he no longer wanted to keep it. I bought it as I wasn’t convinced it was a repaint, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 14 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Repaint or not you can clearly see the field grey paint underneath. It has history either way!! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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